Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about

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This post has 211 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 728
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 30 2018 12:55 PM

This thread has been about how search is far too complicated in Logos. But it's not just there. It's on the website, too. In another thread today someone asked Graham how to do a search for resources on Logos.com that cost between $10 and $15. It turns out there's advanced search logic for that, too. Who knew? Frankly, it's too much work to figure out for the $10-$15 a customer wants to spend. And then there's the broken search capability in the forums and the staff answer we've been given for this that very few know about is to set up your browser to do a Google website search of the forums.

Posts 715
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 30 2018 12:57 PM

Donnie Hale:

Michael S.:

Dave Hooton:

{Label Question WHERE Rhetorical ~ false AND Type ~ "Wh-"} 

{Section <PropositionalOutline = Question>}

{Section <SpeechAct = Info: Quest>}

{Section <SpeechAct = Oblig:Direct>}

{Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}

I felt my eyes begin to glaze over when I started reading these strings...  Because I am not a programmer.

Same. And I am a software developer. I'm even willing to put in effort to learn these capabilities. But from my POV, there are no "hooks" in how it works for my brain to hang onto. For anyone who's done Perl programming or complex regular expressions, it's like that. You have to re-learn at the point in time when you need to use the capability. It should not be that way.

-Donnie

Donnie:  I agree with everything you said, but particularly the part about having to relearn at the point in time when you need it!  So very true!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

www.cynthiafeenstra.net

Posts 2060
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 30 2018 2:23 PM

Donnie Hale:
there are no "hooks" in how it works for my brain to hang onto.

Donnie, this is one of the most fluent observations and agrees with my thoughts about the software. Proximity Search and Person Search are learnable tasks, but beyond those, I am in the weeds and rely heavily on the context menu to "build" searches. MJ demonstrated how the Bible Browser could be leveraged in a search. I'm still struggling to understand the Morph Query builder which is somewhat more graphical than its parent. It doesn't help that the Old Testament portion of this tool is broken with a date for its repair unannounced. 

It appears that with every iteration of the software there is some new thing to learn and much more master. My hope is that this thread will penetrate the heart of the company and awaken the understanding that the program is complicated enough and development hours best spent will be towards simplifying study tasks especially nuts and bolts searching.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 12
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 30 2018 11:02 PM

Thank you, Bruce. I usually see this message at the top, and if I don't need to deal with it, I just ignore it. But even without any updates, Logos desktop startup is still slow.

Bruce Dunning:

Darrell, did you know that under "settings" you can control when you would like this to be done so that you can update when it is convenient for you?

Posts 2299
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 30 2018 11:32 PM

Beloved:

It appears that with every iteration of the software there is some new thing to learn and much more master. My hope is that this thread will penetrate the heart of the company and awaken the understanding that the program is complicated enough and development hours best spent will be towards simplifying study tasks especially nuts and bolts searching.

Can we all say a loud amen to that?

Posts 23713
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 31 2018 12:13 AM

Darrell Tan:
Thank you, Bruce. I usually see this message at the top, and if I don't need to deal with it, I just ignore it. But even without any updates, Logos desktop startup is still slow.

Darrell, please address this issue outside this thread, in the Logos 7 forum.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 715
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 31 2018 2:38 AM

Lee:

Beloved:

It appears that with every iteration of the software there is some new thing to learn and much more master. My hope is that this thread will penetrate the heart of the company and awaken the understanding that the program is complicated enough and development hours best spent will be towards simplifying study tasks especially nuts and bolts searching.

Can we all say a loud amen to that?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmeeeeennnnnnnn!!!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

www.cynthiafeenstra.net

Posts 1789
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 6 2018 3:59 PM

Dave Hooton:

Mark:
And your second comment about the context menu...I just spent a few minutes trying to understand what you wrote...and I have given up.

Let me try again

Start with a Reverse Interlinear bible and right click a word. The right side of the Context menu will show the data you can search for, and the left side will allow you to Search by opening the Search tool with a properly formatted query e.g. {Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}. If you want to search for questions of Jesus, you have to modify that query so that it looks like {Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}. INTERSECTS  {Speaker <Person Jesus>}. You can see similar examples under https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Proximity.

Thank you Dave for trying again.  I really appreciate it.  But it still seems complicated to me.

Posts 2060
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 6 2018 5:37 PM

Mark:
But it still seems complicated to me.

I'm no expert, but I do have a handle on the basics of building a search string using the context menu. The first thing you need to know is what are you asking of your query or search. Say as in the case that Dave describes you want to know the places where Jesus is the speaker and he is asking a question of his audience or interrogating his audience. Let's say for simplicities sake the only scripture you can recall is a place where Jesus is the speaker. In this example I will use the Sermon on the Mount, namely the Beatitudes in Mt5.2. Right-click anywhere in the text to pull up the context menu. Find the megaphone fronting Jesus select this from the right side of the context menu then from the left side of the menu select search this resource.

In order to obtain a successful search you need the proper syntax or structure this is what you are building now.

The next thing to determine is the syntax for sentence. You will note that the Beatitudes is tagged as a declarative sentence type you find this by examining the context menu and look for a data or datum labeled sentence. Once you have successfully located this information. You will repeat the same procedure you just completed with the speaker Jesus run a search on the declarative sentence type.

Now you have the proper syntax to query sentence data type. Now you can combine the two queries to set up your final search. You can do this in steps. 

Now you must choose the appropriate Boolean operator here INTERSECTS is what you want as you are looking for where the two data types are present together, You can also change the declarative data type to Interrogative as this is the sentence type that you are interested in.

Now run your search. Voila! Hopefully, you find this helpful.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 2662
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 6 2018 6:05 PM

One question for me, would be what a Section search extension refers to. The term {Section ...} isn't understandable like {Highlight ...} or {Speaker ...} or {Label ...}, especially when you consider that a {Section ...} could refer to a Preaching Theme, Cultural Concept, Speech Act, Sentence Type, Grammatical Construction, or Literary Typing.

It's like "Section" is some type of overloaded placeholder or "meta-extension," which handles those "sub-extensions." (I'm guessing, and probably using the wrong "terminology.")

Words such as "textual phenomena," also leaves a lot to guess about. I didn't go to bible college, and I'm not familiar with the term.

The documentation isn't written at a novice level, and it presumes a certain level of familiarity (or expertise). I'm still not sure what a "Section" is. (Is it short for "Section of text?") All I know is that it's part of the syntax you have to specify for 6 or 7 specific types of extended searches.

Posts 1803
LogosEmployee

PetahChristian:

One question for me, would be what a Section search extension refers to. The term {Section ...} isn't understandable like {Highlight ...} or {Speaker ...} or {Label ...}, especially when you consider that a {Section ...} could refer to a Preaching Theme, Cultural Concept, Speech Act, Sentence Type, Grammatical Construction, or Literary Typing.

I'm still not sure what a "Section" is. (Is it short for "Section of text?") All I know is that it's part of the syntax you have to specify for 6 or 7 specific types of extended searches.

You are essentially correct. Section refers to a section of text. It's not a milestone, because it's not necessarily aligned with the verses in the Bible. It's just an arbitrary block of text that has an associated tag.

Posts 138
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 6 2018 7:48 PM

Andrew:

Shut your eyes and pretend that you don't live and breathe searching and such: then open them and read out loud the sentence you just wrote:  It's not a milestone, because it's not necessarily aligned with the verses in the Bible. It's just an arbitrary block of text that has an associated tag.

It simply does not communicate to somebody who does not have your world view.  

Probably, to get the most out of Logos,I will need to get your world view.... it sure seems that making this simple is next to impossible, particularly since there is a huge amount of theological vocabulary built into the search process.  

My last sentence might not make sense either!

So, it is tough to get it right and perfected.  Oh well, I am still shocked at what I can do with limited knowledge.

Posts 1803
LogosEmployee

Rob Lambert:

Andrew:

Shut your eyes and pretend that you don't live and breathe searching and such: then open them and read out loud the sentence you just wrote:  It's not a milestone, because it's not necessarily aligned with the verses in the Bible. It's just an arbitrary block of text that has an associated tag.

It simply does not communicate to somebody who does not have your world view.  

Probably, to get the most out of Logos,I will need to get your world view.... it sure seems that making this simple is next to impossible, particularly since there is a huge amount of theological vocabulary built into the search process.  

My last sentence might not make sense either!

So, it is tough to get it right and perfected.  Oh well, I am still shocked at what I can do with limited knowledge.

I definitely would have responded differently if I was explaining things from the ground up. I could be mistaken, but I believe that Petah is familiar with milestones.

The simpler answer is, "Yes, it's a section of text. It doesn't exactly match up with verses in the Bible, and it's not a location in the book you can enter in the location box in order to jump to. Therefore, it's just an arbitrary section of text that has been marked with a piece of data."

My apologies for making things more complicated than they needed to be.

Posts 23713
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 6 2018 8:44 PM

PetahChristian:
I'm still not sure what a "Section" is. (Is it short for "Section of text?")

Yes! It specifies the text that the datatype (<PreachingTheme>, <Culture>, <SpeechAct>, etc) refers to. What I call "textual datatypes", because they refer to arbitrary sections of text.

{Highlight}, {Speaker}, {Addressee}, and {Milestone} also look for sections of text, but the name is more meaningful and functional. For example {Speaker <Person Jesus>} picks up the words spoken by Jesus. And {Speaker <Place Jerusalem>} picks up the words spoken by Jerusalem!

{PassageList} functions differently, as it looks for bible references.

EDIT: my response was delayed, so I missed Andrew's replies. We have the same/similar understanding of {Section}, so I trust that the rest of my response was clear.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 2299
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 5:02 PM

I've invested a lot of money on Logos, and yet I've barely used the search functions. As an informed user, I'm still mostly using Logos as an e-book reader.

Other people have expressed similar sentiments.

I hope that FL will do something with the feedback.

Posts 17471
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 5:35 PM

Donnie Hale:
there are no "hooks" in how it works for my brain to hang onto.

Dragging a Search into Favorites allows for reuse - awesome would be Notes integration so could describe what this search does, which could be searched later when have a similar question.

Getting older has its opportunities, which includes more relearning. Hence, would appreciate being able to add metadata (notes, labels, tags, ...) to my searches for subsequent "hook" reminders and reuse.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3456
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 6:02 AM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Therefore, it's just an arbitrary section of text that has been marked with a piece of data

I am not sure that the term "arbitrary" helps because it can suggest that it is somewhat random and unpredictable.

A section will not run from the second sentence, fifth letter, in the third word of a paragraph to another random location. They are based on some form of logical division often considered implicit to the text. For instance, in the examples mentioned above, the section being searched is a specific type of sentence. It may not be always limited to a sentence, however. For instance, it may find a selection of text tagged with a specific preaching theme or cultural concept. This is why sections correspond to tags: to be found as a section, a selection of text must have been previously tagged as matching what you are looking for.

This means that if you section searched interrogative sentences for dog and the sentence "do you have a dog?" did not come up in your search results although it is in one of your resources, you would have every reason to say "hey, Faithlife, how come?"

Posts 97
Ted Harms | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 7:08 AM

I will just say I agree with all that has been said regarding the difficult searches. I have had Logos for many years and I have never grasped it.  Would love to see some significant changes toward being more user friendly.

Posts 560
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 9:46 AM

Cynthia in Florida:

Only by sticking to the facts will we, and the staff of FL who are reading this, not have to swim through mud in order to actually see the valid concerns and thus, make positive changes that benefit us all. 

Yes

Posts 560
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 10:29 AM

I think some button driven, virtual assistant platform may be helpful.  Let me see if I can put into words, what visual my mind has...

I open my Logos program.  If I have set it up to show my homepage, it does.  If so- buttons are on the side or top.  These buttons are kinda general "What do I want to do" types- like the Guides.  If I have not chosen to show my homescreen on launch, all I see is the big buttons (maybe with some sort of representative graphic on them~ and colorful of course).  If I wait a few seconds without selecting a button (like Read, or Study, or Research, Prepare a Sermon for example), an assistant comes up asking WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO?  And with a chat-type box, I can type what I am wanting to do in as few of words as possible (or if advanced enough capable, I can speak into the mic and voice recognition kicks in).  It filters what I type or say to apply to Logos function, and then asks for confirmation before opening one of the buttons for me.  Once that level of entry into the Logos machine has happened, there are another set of buttons that further breaks down the general function offered by the first set of buttons.  Functioning like a flow chart would.. IF-THEN scenarios that lead me where I want to go.  But of course all the complicated programming strings, etc. are going on behind the scenes.  And there is an easy back button that takes me back ONE step each time I use it.  That way, if I go down the wrong rabbit hole, I can get back to my last fork in the road.  These buttons open panes, like now, so that way I can do more than just one of these button driven functions.  So if I am in Sermon Prep, and need to launch Research... the buttons are there and it opens a new panel just for that line of functioning.  Buttons at the tops of panels like Search, Compare, Copy, Highlight, Back, etc. are on every panel that opens, and only applies to data in that panel.  When I click one of those buttons, if deeper options are available, either a row of more buttons populate, or a drop down menu.  So for the Search button on a panel, the drop down will provide options that will help me the user get to what I am wanting- whether simple, or complex (FL would have to figure out how that would be done)... but the point is menus are what is driving the machine... not my directing it by knowing code.  Also, if I choose wrongly, I can easily right where the screen is - back up.  And the Assistant is always there to help if I get stuck (which if the menus are designed well enough, that should not happen).  

Does this make sense?  It is hard to write what my mind sees... but the key is the program is walking one step at a time based on the direction I am choosing at each juncture that I make a choice.  Depending on the complexity will determine how many of these choices I have to make, but it does as MP always says, "the heavy lifting".

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