Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about

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This post has 211 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 715
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 10:52 AM

Beloved:

Mark:
But it still seems complicated to me.

I'm no expert, but I do have a handle on the basics of building a search string using the context menu....................

...........................................

Now run your search. Voila! Hopefully, you find this helpful.

Beloved:  While this doesn't solve the search problem, it does help me a bit.  Thanks!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

www.cynthiafeenstra.net

Posts 2060
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 11:53 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
Beloved:  While this doesn't solve the search problem, it does help me a bit.  Thanks!

Cynthia,

That you have derived use from my post is a humbling thought. I was grieved to read Lee's post that due to Logos' complexities he has largely given up on search as a feature. This need not be so. My approach to this task may be instructive, so I will take this opportunity to report on it here.

I gained fundamental exposure to search from Morris Proctor's Camp Logos next in order of instruction was Verbum Advanced Search Training. Next in order is my attention to search questions from forum users. I pay particular attention to KS4J and Dave Hooton they are search gurus with a vast grasp on the topic of search. I work through their answers carefully making sure I grasp the smallest detail of their reasoning. 

Proximity search, Person search, and Right-Click Context Menu search are all powerful and well within the grasp of the common man. Finally, I practice devising my own search queries based on my devotional approach to the study of the Bible. Thank you, Cynthia, for starting this thread. 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 1789
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 12 2018 4:51 PM

Beloved:
That you have derived use from my post is a humbling thought. I was grieved to read Lee's post that due to Logos' complexities he has largely given up on search as a feature. This need not be so.

Again I have greatly appreciated those that have helped try to simplify the search.  I have not had time to look through your explanation...I read through it once and realize I need to focus, concentrate to really figure it out...this one aspect of searching.  And the past few weeks have been busy to a point where I have used Logos constantly, but have had no time to "learn" this difficult search process.  I cannot help but think that there must be a more user friendly way to do searches.  And if I, a logos user since the days of L3 gets frustrated with doing searches, then new customers of Logos are going to get frustrated...unless of course they have a lot of time to go through a course on how to do searches.

Posts 2060
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 12 2018 5:32 PM

Mark:
I read through it once and realize I need to focus, concentrate to really figure it out

Hi Mark,

I really tried to convey the directness/simplicity of this search approach. Once grasped it has broad application. So, please point out where I may have lost you. I'm not above criticism and welcome the opportunity to make search within the Logos environment more approachable.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 1789
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 12 2018 6:13 PM

Beloved

I have bookmarked your explanation.  I have not had time to "grasp" it.  I am not doubting that once grasped it has broad application.  I just cannot figure things like this out in 5 minutes.  Once things have settled down for me, I will look at your explanation and Dave's that was given several posts back a more thorough look.  But the whole point of the search issue is that it is complicated for the average user. As a result, I am quite sure most only do a simple search.

Posts 4587
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 13 2018 12:03 AM

I'm an outlier...I know that. Still using L3 most of the time because it does "most" of what I want better than L3>>> ever will. I do use the latest version (it's still 7, right?), at times, but I find it clunky, cumbersome, anything but intuitive, and almost always requiring 5-10 times more clicks than L3 does to accomplish the same task. For that reason, I just accept that I will never master the newest version, because I never have opportunity to use it enough to learn what it does. But there's also this: of the dozens upon dozens of things that I have seen and heard users request of the last decade, I think that most of the stuff borders on nonsense...either extraordinarily arcane hair-splitting, or stuff akin to wiping the users' fannies and spoon-feeding them. I suspect that Logos may have the opposite effect on some people than is usually touted, making them less able to hack valuable ore from their resources than they can with a simpler program like L3. "Ease" of use can create flabby disciples.

All of that said, get this...over the last year, I have spent very little time using Logos in any format. I have instead done something that 3-4 years ago I was insisting I would never do--gone back to buying hundreds and hundreds of dollars of hard copy books and reading them almost to the exclusion of using Logos. My FIRST priority for starting Logos back in the 90s (L2.0) was the ability to gain access to CONTENT in a format that was cheaper than buying individual titles, and oh yeah, it was portable and searchable. I have seen almost ZERO acquisition of the thousands of new and classic resources that my current Logos library (and my paper books) repeatedly make dead-linked reference to. Also, the searching I need is pretty much available in L3. The search strings necessary for using Logos now look almost like crytocurrency key codes. My point is that Logos has gotten more and more DIFFICULT and less and less USEFUL to me with every passing year. Each time that I have upgraded to the newest version of the software, it was almost SOLELY for the purpose of increasing my library with new CONTENT titles I wanted access to. I honestly don't think I've used any of the L4> features except for the ones that awkwardly replicate what L3 does so much easier.

While I can comprehend why FL might feel the financial need to expand its horizons, that expansion has done NOTHING for me. I gave up the idea of recommending Logos to other people when my friend (who designed spacecraft systems for NASA) bought L4 (or 5?) only to, after a couple of weeks of fighting with the program, revert to using a PDF(!!!!) version of the KJV on his phone rather than using his new and expensive (and frustrating) Bible software. Just to be clear, he initially bought Logos because of what he has seen me doing with L3.

As I have lamented before, I would love to have cause to leave L3 behind, but I have given up hope on that point. I have heard that Notes are getting a ground-up rethink, but my guess is that they will still be viewed as "Memos"--tiny scraps of info that are slap-stuck on related data. What I need, and what L3 offered (though not fully), was something more akin to "Gateways". Theoretically, a note in L3 was a repository of ALL the relevant information in my Logos program related to the verse (or a given word in that verse) that I was focused on...AND all of that info was accessible simply with a MOUSE HOVER--NO CLICKS REQUIRED. Efficiency and simplicity were never so simple and efficient. THOSE are the two words that FL needs to inscribe on the doorposts in Bellingham.

P.S. Given the constant complaining of forum users of late, I have kept my peace on many of the recent flare-ups. I don't like the idea of "piling on", especially since running the hornets nest called FL strikes me as a nearly thankless task, and the unending juggling act involving dozens of balls and other objects is my idea of a waking nightmare. But as I've said before, I married Logos years ago, and I'm getting pulled along. I would love to feel the love again, but I don't really feel like my needs are receiving any consideration.

Posts 9473
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 13 2018 6:49 AM

Mr Paul, you're being completely unfair to the Logosians. It's not their fault the rulers of Logosland happily design streets most can't remember how to drive on. I say walk. Or move to Libby-land, where life is good, and true happiness abounds!

Side: I notice one of the Logosland counselors recently recommended enhancing the tread marks on the streets. I tried to remember (it's been years) ... tread marks ... oh, ok. You're supposed to turn those off when you move to Logosland (along with community notes).


Posts 25190
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 13 2018 1:31 PM

Denise:
Side: I notice one of the Logosland counselors recently recommended enhancing the tread marks on the streets. I tried to remember (it's been years) ... tread marks ... oh, ok. You're supposed to turn those off when you move to Logosland (along with community notes).

I'm also guilty of never liking Libby ... but quite willing to admit that wear marks are probably used by few people but that doesn't mean that those who find them useful don't have the right to use them. And I do have my limits. I have not requested that Logos build a function to verify concept lattices for logical consistency. (At least not yet ... Logos - are you listening??

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9473
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 13 2018 3:03 PM

MJ. Smith:

I'm also guilty of never liking Libby ... but quite willing to admit that wear marks are probably used by few people but that doesn't mean that those who find them useful don't have the right to use them. And I do have my limits. I have not requested that Logos build a function to verify concept lattices for logical consistency. (At least not yet ... Logos - are you listening??

Well, to hint at honesty, the wear marks on Kindle are one of my favorites. But that's because there's only 5 or so of them. Just perfect. The honesty part is I haven't ever returned to wear marks in Logos to see if (a) you could erase them ie start over, or (b) just a few like Kindle.  In the new mobile update, they continue to refuse to show you where you are in a book (unlike Logos desktop and Kindle); with their new slider .... somewhere in the middle-ish! It's quite maddening when you don't know what chapter you're in.

I can easily see your reluctance to endorse Libby. Logos does all my searches (shhh). But Libby doesn't demand somebody watch me reading and report back. And Libby's never crashed after 13 years. I can crash the Logos mobile pretty reliably, it's so sloppy.


Posts 3456
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 18 2018 3:07 AM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Search, especially regarding the need to simplify a complex syntax

In the same vein, the command box needs to be more intelligent (but, I know I repeat myself, not made slower in the process). As an example, this morning I wanted to turn off the automatic copying of resource bibliographic info when pasting text from it. I remembered two words from the command: set and citations. I tried set citations to no, the box did not recognise it and suggest the proper line which is "set copy citations to no". The same thing happens if one uses "copy citations to no" or "set citations no" (without the quotation marks of course). This is just one example among many. Although I often know where to find the command the long way (in this case in tools/settings), one wants to be able to access what is needed quickly and that is the idea of the command box. So, make it more intelligent. 

BTW, it may be asking too much, but I love the Google feature "did you mean...?" which looks past a misspelling to propose a close match. This would be a useful functionality for searches. 

Finally, it would be helpful to be able to search the web from the context menu. It could be something more or less like the Perseus Web Lookup, but one that invokes the user's default web search engine. Often I find the need to go online to find information that I do not have in Logos. I have done this countless times. 

Posts 715
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 18 2018 9:50 AM

Francis:

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Search, especially regarding the need to simplify a complex syntax

BTW, it may be asking too much, but I love the Google feature "did you mean...?" which looks past a misspelling to propose a close match. This would be a useful functionality for searches. 

Francis:  This is a great point.  Many times, just because of one letter or minor “error” I find I get zero results.  I think this would be an awesome addition,  but I think that considering what we are starting with, it probably is too much to ask.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

www.cynthiafeenstra.net

Posts 562
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 18 2018 5:36 PM

I would just chip in with what may be an obvious statement. Faithlife, if you change things please make sure they are backward compatible. I am no expert at all and have very limited knowledge. I would be in tears if I came to logos 8 or 9 and it was so different everything I knew no longer worked  and I had to learn everything again:-) 

Trying to be as noble as a Berean , Acts 17:11

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