Action of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

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This post has 45 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 104
Nick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 11:22 AM

The complexity of these searches is increasingly frustrating to me.  Yes, the software is powerful...  But the power is lost in the bulk of users (like me) who will never learn the syntax.  I *really* hope the request for a search builder tool is being heard.

Posts 783
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 6:09 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Here are the steps:

  1. Open the Search panel and switch to the Bible search type.
  2. Change All Passages to Old Testament.
  3. Type Holy Spirit in the search box.
  4. Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
  5. Run your search.
  6. Read your results.

I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu.  I am missing something.  Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?

Posts 8
Brian Ramdhan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 7:12 PM

hey just curious but how do you get that signature in your post at the end? 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 9:20 PM

Nick:
The complexity of these searches is increasingly frustrating to me.

What is frustrating to me is that it can be done. Given that it is interpretation, reading the Old Testament as foreshadowing through the lens of the New Testament, I see it as a place Faithlife is telling me how to read the text rather than simply presenting me with the text. Were I Jewish or non-Trinitarian, I would not be happy.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 104
Nick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 10:21 PM

MJ. Smith:

What is frustrating to me is that it can be done. Given that it is interpretation, reading the Old Testament as foreshadowing through the lens of the New Testament, I see it as a place Faithlife is telling me how to read the text rather than simply presenting me with the text. Were I Jewish or non-Trinitarian, I would not be happy.

This occurred to me as well.  I wonder if there's a set policy for how interpretational issues should be handled.  Is it better to stick to explicit references or to try to represent a broad number of interpretational traditions?  Is Faithlife approaching this in an organized, intentional manner, or is it haphazard?  

Often results are library based.  Does base package tradition influence results?  

The complexity of trying to accommodate the the virtually unlimited number of interpretive options is overwhelming.

Posts 2359
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 10:25 PM

MJ. Smith:
What is frustrating to me is that it can be done.

I'd rather see more tagging (increasing the value), rather than less tagging (to avoid differences in interpretation).

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 10:49 PM

Deacon Steve:
I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu.  I am missing something.  Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?

Hmm. You should be seeing this:

When you click on it, it will update your search term to <Person Holy Spirit>.

What version and base package level do you have?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 11:24 PM

PetahChristian:
I'd rather see more tagging (increasing the value), rather than less tagging (to avoid differences in interpretation).

I've been going through my "people of the Bible" resources giving them Community Tags - you likely can see my work in your Factbook. Even there, I find that Faithlife's smoothing of the data by choosing a particular genealogy to be primary or to conflate people who may or may not be the same person decreases the value - I have to work harder to find that everyone under a person tag may not be the same person. Or when alternative names/spellings are not present I often have to scan a Biblical text to find the right Factbook entry. Or mouse over information is incompatible with the passage tagged ...I'd rather see tagging I can trust, which preserves the complexity of the text. You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2018 11:43 PM

MJ. Smith:
You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.

Please illustrate with some concepts, and clarify how you "summarily dismiss" tags?

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 783
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 4:46 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Deacon Steve:
I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu.  I am missing something.  Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?

Hmm. You should be seeing this:

….

When you click on it, it will update your search term to <Person Holy Spirit>.

….

What version and base package level do you have?

Phil,  I am seeing it now.  Not sure what I may have been doing last night - maybe clicking away from the search box thinking it would have populated the autocomplete menu sooner. (I have an older computer with a standard HDD.)  I let it process longer this morning and it did come up.  I am seeing the same as what you posted.

I have a Verbum Portfolio base package.  Version info:

Verbum 7.16
7.16.0.0012

Thanks for your help … everyone's help Smile

Posts 3361
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 10:10 AM

MJ, despite attempts to diversify and reach out to different crowds, Logos products are not neutrally and non-confessionally academic. One may wish it to be different, others will welcome it, but in any case, it is part of the company's history and identity. 

This being said, there is no true "neutral" approach to the Bible and it would be quite a challenge to tag the Bible "neutrally" unless one solely keeps to semantic and syntactical searches (and even then subjective interpretation often informed by confession can creep in). I am not Catholic but I consult some Catholic commentaries and make abstraction of what I consider Catholic bias when I encounter it. Or I could insist that such resources should not be made available at all. I think that to insist on neutering tags would be in essence the same thing and would probably result in more loss than gain. I prefer the idea of using with caution and awareness of limitations. To be sure, many users will continue to use material as if these caveats did not apply, but I don't think it can be helped.

But this, of course, is a much broader topic than what the OP asked for. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 10:36 AM

Dave Hooton:

MJ. Smith:
You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.

Please illustrate with some concepts, and clarify how you "summarily dismiss" tags?

The most relevant example would be any tag of the Holy Spirit in the Hebrew Scripture. For the literal meaning of the Old Testament, I like to first read it as a Jew would read it - then read it through the lens of the Cross as Alexander Schmemann puts it. That is not to say that the Holy Spirit is not in the Old Testament, only that (a) it is too easy to apply concepts asynchronously and (b) that a concept cannot be explicit in a text before the concept exists although it can be foreshadowed, hints of the need for the concept exposed.  A second example would be the tagging of the two creation of humanity accounts in Gen 1 and 2 which are tagged in a manner than harmonizes the two versions.  A third example would be Theme tags simply because they slice and dice topics in different ways than I do. Unfortunately, I don't recall the 2 examples I ran into on Tuesday. 

I generally don't mention it - it's simply a given of Logos software. But it does disturb me when users assume they ought to be able to search the text for something that cannot be done on the text itself. Using tags that interpret is just fine as long as you recognize that is what you are doing and you find them useful.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 10:39 AM

Francis:

MJ, despite attempts to diversify and reach out to different crowds, Logos products are not neutrally and non-confessionally academic. One may wish it to be different, others will welcome it, but in any case, it is part of the company's history and identity. 

This being said, there is no true "neutral" approach to the Bible and it would be quite a challenge to tag the Bible "neutrally" unless one solely keeps to semantic and syntactical searches (and even then subjective interpretation often informed by confession can creep in).

I basically agree with you although I do believe Logos could do a bit better at leaving the difficulties of the text visible rather than harmonizing them. My point was not that Logos should change but rather that the user should be aware.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 865
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 12:15 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

   4.  Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.

So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?

"I read dead people..."

Posts 3361
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 12:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
Logos could do a bit better at leaving the difficulties of the text visible rather than harmonizing them

Can you provide a couple specific examples of how harmonisation is proposed and what you think would be a better alternative?

Posts 104
Nick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 7:00 PM

Brother Mark:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

   4.  Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.

So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?

"She was filled with a holy spirit."

"She was filled with the Holy Spirit."

It is useful for the program to know that the term you're searching for is an entity instead of a descriptive phrase.

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LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 7:13 PM

Brother Mark:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

   4.  Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.

So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?

That's not a logically necessary inference. The item in gray following the main item is a descriptor or sub-category. The presence of the descriptor doesn't necessarily imply that another version of that entity exists to whom that descriptor doesn't apply.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2018 11:06 PM

Francis:
Can you provide a couple specific examples of how harmonisation is proposed and what you think would be a better alternative?

Will do tomorrow - I spent today babysitting a 2-year-old rambunctious grandson.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 1:14 AM

Brother Mark:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

   4.  Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.

So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?

No, just as "Eve woman" does not infer that there's an Eve's who's a man. All Biblical People in Logos have identifiers such as this. It's usually "man or "woman", but you sometimes have "ethnic group", or "group of people", or "angel" or "supernatural being".

Posts 3361
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2018 5:47 AM

To clarify further what Phil and Mark wrote: the category helps to classify the item with other similar items in the same category (or at least to ascribe it some sort of classification).

So if you type "supernatural being" in the search field, wait for it to give you a list of suggestions and browse through it looking the "person" icon, you will find that there are others beside the Holy Spirit (e.g., demons a.k.a evil/unclean spirits, etc). 

This in turn can be used in other tools, for instance, type "supernatural being" in the Bible Browser and look under people or other categories for possibilities.

In the case of Spirit/spirit, many passages that would appear to refer to the Holy Spirit do not necessarily use the full expression. Since the word spirit can have another referent beside a supernatural being (e.g., in the phrase, body, spirit, and soul), the tagging helps identify the passages interpreted as referring to the Holy Spirit and not to some other spirit (or just wind).

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