Searching specifical Hebrew Stems.

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Michael Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Aug 18 2018 4:09 PM

I am doing a word study assignment and want to do a search specifically on all the Piel Stems of a verb. Is this possible on Logos? (I am sure it is because on an older forum in 2010 it was demonstrated, but since then the format changed)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 18 2018 6:29 PM

Welcome Big Smile

Suggest Morph Search (using Logos Hebrew Morphology that is used in Lexham resources and Reverse Interlinears)

<LogosMorphHeb ~ Vb???????>

Screen shot shows Morph Search, Lexham Hebrew Bible, and Information tool.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 19 2018 11:12 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Suggest Morph Search (using Logos Hebrew Morphology that is used in Lexham resources and Reverse Interlinears)

<LogosMorphHeb ~ Vb???????>

Can you also use the Morph Query? 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2018 12:48 PM

bump KS4J or other informed person.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 21 2018 3:24 PM

Beloved:
Can you also use the Morph Query? 

Yes when have online connection. Thankful for Lexham Hebrew Bible being usable again for Morph Query.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 22 2018 12:41 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Yes when have online connection.

I see your point. Thank you!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 22 2018 4:25 PM

The Morph Query produces different results to Morph Search - 6301 v, 6464 - for some reason.

Dave
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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 22 2018 6:25 PM

Dave Hooton:

The Morph Query produces different results to Morph Search - 6301 v, 6464 - for some reason.

Yes, I too noticed this. Another thing I can't explain is when I save the searches as a Passage List Vb??????? and Morph Query generate 5,283 and 5,175 verses respectively. When I merge them for difference, I get 11 verses. Am I missing something?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 22 2018 8:58 PM

I get 5286 verses in Morph Search vs. 5175. Merging Passage Lists (Difference) shows the numerical difference of 111 verses between the two!

Dave
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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2018 12:49 PM

Dave Hooton:

I get 5286 verses in Morph Search vs. 5175. Merging Passage Lists (Difference) shows the numerical difference of 111 verses between the two!

When I was patient and let the report finish running, I got results almost identical to above save 1 less verse for the Morph Search. And as a result, my merged difference report generated 110 vs your 111 verses. Is there an explanation for these aberrations?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 2286
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2018 2:06 PM

I believe I have found at least one false listing among the results from the difference report. 2Ch34.25 does not appear to be any Piel verbs in this verse. 

I have not finished inspecting the results there may be other false listing among this report.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2018 5:40 PM

Beloved:
2Ch34.25 does not appear to be any Piel verbs in this verse. 

It has a Piel Verb, as reported in the Morph Search but missing from Morph Query.

I'm creating a bug report for Faithlife.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2018 6:25 PM

Dave Hooton:
It has a Piel Verb, as reported in the Morph Search but missing from Morph Query.

After a more careful inspection, the verb translated "offering" is reported as a Hifil in ESV but the LHB reports that it is both Hifil and Piel. Perhaps someone would explain the significance of this fact. How it is both and why the ESV fails to make note of this?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2018 1:20 PM

Is there anyone with an understanding of the Hebrew who can explain how the verb often translated offering in RIs in 2Ch34.25 is reported as Hifil while the LHB reports it as both Hifil and Piel. Please help!

I've searched the grammars that I have and can find no explanation.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2018 2:05 PM

Does this help? from https://uhg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/stem_piel.html 

In Biblical Hebrew, some verbs can express different meanings in different stem formations. A good example is the Hebrew verb נָחַם. In the Niphal stem, the verb נָחַם usually expresses either stative action (“to be sorry”) or passive action (“to be comforted”). But in the Piel stem, the verb נָחַם expresses the simple action “to comfort”. A dictionary or lexicon will indicate the different meanings for these verbs in the various stem formations.

Example: RUT 2:13
כִּ֣י נִֽחַמְתָּ֔נִי
ki nihamtani
for you-have-comforted-me
for you have comforted me

On the other hand, some verbs express the same meaning in multiple stem formations. A good example is the verb אָסַף, which expresses the simple action “to gather” in both the Qal and the Piel stem. This also will be indicated by a dictionary or lexicon.

Example: JDG 19:18
וְאֵ֣ין אִ֔ישׁ מְאַסֵּ֥ף אוֹתִ֖י הַבָּֽיְתָה
we’en ‘ish me’assef ‘othi habbayethah
and-there-is-not man gathering [dir.obj]-me to-the-house
but there is no one who will take me into his house

Expresses resultative action

Resultative action means that the primary focus of the verb is on the result of the verbal action. A good example is the verb שָׁלַח. In the Qal stem, the verb שָׁלַח means “to send” or “to stretch out”. But in the Piel stem, the verb שָׁלַח means “to send away”.

Example: GEN 21:6
וַיִּתֵּ֣ן … וְאֶת־הַיֶּ֖לֶד וַֽיְשַׁלְּחֶ֑הָ
wayyitten … we’eth-hayyeled wayeshalleheha
and-he-gave … and-[dir.obj]_the-boy and-he-sent-her-away
He gave her the boy and sent her away

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2018 2:38 PM

MJ. Smith:
Does this help?

Thanks for your input MJ, but this does not explain how a verb can have two stem formations at once as this verb apparently has in 2Ch34.25 being both Hifil and Piel at the same time. What significance does this have and how can this be; there must be an explanation? And why don't the RIs report this duality as the LHB does?

Edit: Thank you MJ; you gave me the idea to search with Google and I found an article on JSTOR from the Jewish Quarterly Review regarding what is called Biliteral Stems. I'm reading it now it looks promising. Thanks!

Edit: As it turns out the article is not helpful Sad

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2018 4:48 PM

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers has:

Burned incense.Hiphil, which is much commoner in the chronicle than piel,the form in Kings (the forms piel and hiphil of this word qatar are about equally used in Kings.)

Which appears to answer the mystery of this text and increase my desire to own this work in Logos. I will be pressing this in another thread.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 2286
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2018 5:46 PM

Dave,

According to Ellicott and the scholarship of current Bible scholars the verb qtr is Hifil and therefore its being reported as Piel by Morph Search is debatable.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 26 2018 3:54 AM

Beloved:
the verb qtr is Hifil

Are you referring to this specific instance? Theoretically, any verb could occur in any stem, so saying a particular lemma is a certain stem is inaccurate. From what I'm seeing (morph charts) this lemma occurs in Piel, Pual, Hifil, and Hofal in LHB. There's actually only a nuanced distinction between the meanings of Piel and Hifil, so in instances where the form doesn't show which stem was intended, it's difficult to determine from context which it should be. 

This does not, however, answer your question of why RI's don't show both options! I believe they should.

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 26 2018 5:08 AM

Reuben Helmuth:
Are you referring to this specific instance?

Yes! I am by no means adept at Hebrew so I accept wholeheartedly your assertions the verb qatar as it appears in 2Ch34.25 is reported as Hifil by RIs and both Hifil and Piel by the LHB. I searched for an answer as to settle this discrepancy and found Ellicot's comment that this instance was likely Hifil whereas it was frequently Piel in Kings, please see my quote in an earlier post.

If you have a better grasp of the facts as presented and can explain what all this means to the student, by all means, answer back. Thanks for your response.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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