Touch Screen Support Still Missing

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This post has 34 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 651
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 10:01 AM

David Thomas:

Kiyah:
But I guess Microsoft is wasting resources because nobody is taking advantage of this functionality.

I suspect that the Apple/Microsoft divide is alive and well in some circles. When (if?) Apple ever makes a touch-enabled MacBook, then Logos will magically start to see the need that so many of us have expressed for so long.

I agree. Problem is I wonder if Apple doesn't want to make a touch-enabled MacBook because maybe they're afraid they would cannibalize iPad sales. But it would be interesting to know what percentage of Logos users are Mac users. I would think there would still be a ton of Windows users since Logos was historically only available on Windows, unless a lot of those historical users have switched to using their touch-less MacBooks or their iPads.

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 8:31 AM

What is most aggravating to me about the current implementation of touch support is that it is so inconsistent. Resource scroll and swipe pretty well. The home page, search results, reports, etc. do not support touch at all (except by tapping/dragging scrollbars). As a user, it forces me to keep track of what parts of the interface I can control with different input methods. Or, as more often happens, I forget and attempt to interact naturally with the interface, fail, grumble, and work around it. It's quite disruptive.

Windows tablets like the Surface Pro are outstanding companions for Bible study. They feel much more personal and immediate, especially when using a digital pen, than sitting at a desktop or laptop. I study in tablet mode almost exclusively, even despite Logos' current limitations. With a little spit and polish, Logos could really shine on these devices.

This is a missed opportunity - the next generation of promotional videos from Logos really should feature fewer Macbooks and shift toward users blending ancient analog and modern digital methods of study in a single tool: Tablet-enabled Logos 9. (Although 8.1 would be a better goal!)

Posts 12
David Meyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 10:50 AM

At the very end of Logos 4 pen support was working and that included the ability to write notes. I believe it was early in Logos 5 that it went away. Outside of the notes program I can scroll and get my virtual keyboard to pop up and use my pen to enter a new reference. This continues in Logos 8. Touch and pen support continues to be enabled in logos 8 when it comes to the use of resources.  

It seems to be the addon programs that are the problem. For me the notes program is the biggest problem. Currently in the notes program I can still use touch to access menus. Now with 8 we lost the ability to scroll. I have taught for years scrolling through my sermon and commentary notes and will now have to add a mouse to continue.   

With love and limited knowledge. I do not believe that it is a matter of investment but one of priority. I was disappointed with losing the ability to write notes with my pen years ago but to now not be able to scroll is really hard to digest. 

What am I missing? Isn't this a background routine that is included with windows that needs to be accessed? Something like "on touch do" or "on pen do". 

Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 1:52 PM

Thank you for your response Daniel.

First off I want to stress that I'm a very happy FL user who is very frustrated about this issue.  The following are my personal opinions only in regards to windows desktop touch support:

The touch issue is a blackeye on a great product.  The desktop app is FL flagship product.  The mobile and web apps keep improving and for now serve as "yes we can run on that platform too" products to fill a niche.  I use the mobile app regularly and don't use the web app because it is online only as far as I know.  I prefer to not have to be tethered to the internet to do my reading and studying.

FL seems to be out of touch with it's user base about this issue.  I might be wrong but I would think your user base with windows touch devices is larger than you know.  As far as those who actually use it regularly you may be correct that it's relatively small.  But then again why would it be used regularly when it's broken.

Does FL have the goal to deprecate the desktop app and replace with the web app?  If not then FL should either remove all touch support from the desktop app or fully implement it, but not leave it half-baked.  What's frustrating is that it's a hit and miss as far as when we can use touch and when not.  At least give us a consistent experience.

Another question that I'm curious about.  How many FL staff use a windows touch device and how many in the L8 beta used a windows touch device?  Have the touch inconsistencies gone unnoticed internally?  Did they go unnoticed throughout the beta testing phase?

Curious about this as well.  Does Bob (President) have and use a windows touch device for Logos?  If he does not then I am offering to purchase a Surface GO tablet for him so he can join in our experience. Smile (I'm serious about the offer)

Kiyah:

I would just like to be able to scroll the home page with the touchscreen...with my finger. I just want to scroll, that's all. That can't be too hard. People have been asking for this for years, I'm very surprised it's not a part of Logos 8.

Bob Schaefer:

What is most aggravating to me about the current implementation of touch support is that it is so inconsistent. Resource scroll and swipe pretty well. The home page, search results, reports, etc. do not support touch at all (except by tapping/dragging scrollbars). As a user, it forces me to keep track of what parts of the interface I can control with different input methods. Or, as more often happens, I forget and attempt to interact naturally with the interface, fail, grumble, and work around it. It's quite disruptive.

I believe Kiyah and Bob express the common sentiment of expecting touch to work the same throughout the desktop app experience.  It's very frustrating to have it work in some areas but not in others.

Daniel Di Bartolo:

The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.

Okay...

Graham Owen:

Out of interest Daniel

How do you collect data on touch screen usage? I have one, just wondered if your data would have captured that as I have never expressed an interest in touch screen support.

I'm curious as well.  Though I know it would not be all inclusive I will post another thread polling how many forum users have a windows touch device and whether or not they use or would use touch input for the desktop app if they know it's available.  I think that would be good for all of us to know even if FL already has those numbers.

Daniel Di Bartolo:

We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.

Can you please explain who the target audience is for touch support in the web app?  The only serious option is windows touch enabled devices (tablets, laptops, desktops).  The iOS mobile app covers the iPhone and iPad users.  The android mobile app covers android phones and tablets.  Let me know if I'm wrong and there is some other target device for web app touch support.  If that is the case then FL is essentially making touch improvements for windows touch devices while ignoring their flagship desktop app.  Am I missing something?

My hope is that FL would take this issue seriously and have it fixed by the L8.1 release.



Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 8:17 PM

Daniel Di Bartolo:

Thanks for your feedback. We do offer touch support on app.logos.com. 

I spent the afternoon working with the web app.  I honestly haven't used it in a while and wanted to give it a try to see if I'm missing out.

While the app has improved quite a bit since the last time I looked at it (maybe a year ago) it has a long way to go to have parity with the desktop app.

Here are some hurdles to get over for me with the web app:

  1. I don't like working with apps in web browsers.  They just don't offer a nice UI experience compared to a desktop app and provide at best a generic UI.
  2. It needs to function offline as well as online.  I go door to door with my tablet as my bible and I can't depend on having internet access.
  3. I work a lot with saved layouts and it does not appear to me that is a feature available in the web app.

There are more but those are the most important ones.

Web App Advantages:

  1. All resources stored online.
  2. No need for local resource indexing.

Those advantages are not compelling enough on their own and improvements could be made in the desktop app to have selective resource install per device to limit downloading and indexing.

In my opinion while it's nice for FL to offer a web app I'm not quite sure why anyone would want to use it on a regular basis for anything but simple reading and looking up scriptures.  I'd be interested to know who FL sees as the target audience for the web app?  I personally see it stealing away developer resources for sorely needed features and fixes to your flagship desktop app like search, touch, etc.

Posts 10
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 8:49 PM

I am a Surface Pro and Surface Book user who would love to see the touch interface improved as well even though I've never said anything about it before.  It does surprise me when I use those devices how lacking the touch interface is compared to say my Ipad app or my phone app.

Because of the limitations of the web app I use it mainly when I am on a computer that is not my own, for example at work.  It is great to have a straightforward way to access my whole library and some great tools but it is still far from the full program installed on Windows.

I too am a happy Logos 8 user and very thankful for all the great tools but again the touch interface surprises me in a negative way when I use it on my Surface devices.  Almost like in my subconscious it doesn't quite fit with how good the rest of the software is.

Posts 10
Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 8:54 PM

Also I think it is great the FL apologized for this, we know it is not as if the staff are sitting around doing nothing.  Logos 8 must have taken a lot of effort and hours by all the staff to get to its current state.  But perhaps this could be a higher priority than it currently is.

Posts 1
Jason Boyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 7:02 PM

I guess all I can do it voice my opinion in threads like this as well.  I have been waiting in the wings for decent touch screen support for my Surface device for years.  I thought it was coming in Logos 8.  FL user metrics would never capture a lost sale like me.  I wonder how many people like that are out there?

Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2018 3:05 PM

William Walker:
Daniel Di Bartolo:

We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.

Can you please explain who the target audience is for touch support in the web app?  The only serious option is windows touch enabled devices (tablets, laptops, desktops).  The iOS mobile app covers the iPhone and iPad users.  The android mobile app covers android phones and tablets.  Let me know if I'm wrong and there is some other target device for web app touch support.  If that is the case then FL is essentially making touch improvements for windows touch devices while ignoring their flagship desktop app.  Am I missing something?

Who is the target audience for touch support in the web app? What kind of machines?  OS?

William Walker:
My hope is that FL would take this issue seriously and have it fixed by the L8.1 release.

Daniel, is this is a realistic possibility that the desktop touch issues get fixed in L8 near or far future?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2018 5:30 PM

My guess? No, it is not realistic that FL will address it in the near future. 

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Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2018 5:32 PM

JT (alabama24):

My guess? No, it is not realistic that FL will address it in the near future. 

Thanks JT. In your opinion why is this issue lingering for so long?

Posts 1857
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 23 2018 11:01 PM

William Walker:

JT (alabama24):

My guess? No, it is not realistic that FL will address it in the near future. 

Thanks JT. In your opinion why is this issue lingering for so long?

JT is a valued volunteer but is not a Faithlife employee. Daniel DiBartolo, is a Faithlife employee and he answered your question on p.1 of this thread - 

The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet. 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2018 7:52 AM

David Thomas:
JT is a valued volunteer but is not a Faithlife employee. Daniel DiBartolo, is a Faithlife employee and he answered your question on p.1 of this thread -

Thanks David, but I'm well aware that JT is not Daniel and I was asking for his opinion.

David Thomas:
Daniel DiBartolo, is a Faithlife employee and he answered your question on p.1 of this thread - The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet. 

Daniel Di Bartolo:
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app. 

With all due respect to Daniel that is a contradictory statement since touch development is continuing for the web app.  The only logical target for touch with the web app are windows touch enabled devices.  If there is a low percentage then why invest in web app touch?  Is it low percentage or is it not?  And if touch development continues for the web app then why not for the desktop?  That question remains unanswered...

William Walker:

William Walker:
Daniel Di Bartolo:

We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.

Can you please explain who the target audience is for touch support in the web app?  The only serious option is windows touch enabled devices (tablets, laptops, desktops).  The iOS mobile app covers the iPhone and iPad users.  The android mobile app covers android phones and tablets.  Let me know if I'm wrong and there is some other target device for web app touch support.  If that is the case then FL is essentially making touch improvements for windows touch devices while ignoring their flagship desktop app.  Am I missing something?

Who is the target audience for touch support in the web app? What kind of machines?  OS?

This issue remains a sore point for myself (can you tell? WinkBig Smile) and the others who have expressed their frustration, but I won't beleaguer the point anymore as it does not appear FL has any intention of fixing it anytime soon. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2018 11:05 AM

William Walker:
In your opinion why is this issue lingering for so long?

First, let me preference that I am all for all of these suggestions... I just don't think they are likely to happen anytime soon. 

If you look in the mobile forums, you will see many threads & posts wanting "full logos" on the iPad. Unfortunately there isn't much "bang for the buck" for FL to work on either project. Most users don't have touchscreen laptops... at least not good ones (I think this is capacitive vs. resistive). Furthermore, If you were to design an app for touchscreen, it wouldn't look like the desktop app. You would design it for fingers, not for a mouse & keyboard. The same thing is true for the iPad... plus an iPad isn't designed to function like a computer. What would indexing do to battery life? The short answer is that these requests are 1) too niche and 2) too technical to gain traction... at least at present. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 24 2018 3:06 PM

William Walker:
FL seems to be out of touch with it's user base about this issue.  I might be wrong but I would think your user base with windows touch devices is larger than you know.  As far as those who actually use it regularly you may be correct that it's relatively small.  But then again why would it be used regularly when it's broken.

I don't know but I suspect the majority of the users allow Faithlife to collect basic data on usage. So I suspect that FL has reasonably representative figures of what percentage of activity is done on what kind of device. That's not the same as percentage of users, of course.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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