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David Ames | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 30 2018 4:55 AM

The Set Verbum to Yes or No converts Logos to Verbum and back to Logos.

Please, what functionality of Verbum do we lose when running Logos with Verbum set to Yes compared to running an install of Verbum.

Someday those of us with both Logos and Verbum will have to have both installed. Please let us know when that happens.

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LogosEmployee
Donald Antenen (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 8:42 AM

David,

There are a few built-in collections that are only available when you're running the Verbum install, and some of the resource prioritization is different (Verbum prioritizes Catholic Bible translations). However, your features will be the same in each.

Posts 8085
LogosEmployee

David Ames:

Please, what functionality of Verbum do we lose when running Logos with Verbum set to Yes compared to running an install of Verbum.

Verbum and Logos-with-Verbum-set-to-yes should be identical except for some of the program/taskbar icons, etc.

However, "Set Verbum to Yes" is a deprecated command and may be removed in a future version. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/127241/827652.aspx#827652 

Customers who need Verbum should run Verbum.

For more on "set verbum to yes", see https://community.logos.com/forums/p/123048/803878.aspx#803878

David Ames:
Someday those of us with both Logos and Verbum will have to have both installed. Please let us know when that happens.

I'm not sure what this means. Both Logos and Verbum can be installed side-by-side on a computer, although we don't recommend it because it takes double the disk space and the programs are 99% identical.

Posts 2423
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 9:14 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

David Ames:
Someday those of us with both Logos and Verbum will have to have both installed. Please let us know when that happens.

I'm not sure what this means. Both Logos and Verbum can be installed side-by-side on a computer, although we don't recommend it because it takes double the disk space and the programs are 99% identical.

This means that when "Set Verbum to Yes" is removed and / or the programs offer unique functionality we will need more disk space because some of us will need to have both installed.  Please give us as much of a heads up a possible.  Thanks.  

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LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 12:57 PM

David Ames:
some of us will need to have both installed

Could you explain your need for having both installed in further detail? If we understand your use case, we may be able to provide a better solution than "install both".

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 1:33 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Customers who need Verbum should run Verbum.

I normally run both Logos and Verbum as it may be necessary in order to get all the features and be able to assist people using the other product. But when the vast majority of things that don't work correctly affect Verbum users more strongly than Logos users and when nothing in Logos 8 is geared towards Verbum users, it hard to believe one should be a dyed-in-the-wool Verbum user.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2423
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 5:09 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

David Ames:
some of us will need to have both installed

Could you explain your need for having both installed in further detail? If we understand your use case, we may be able to provide a better solution than "install both".

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
  From another thread

MJ. Smith:
Do I understand correctly that it is no longer possible for all Logos installations to switch to Verbum via the command box?

As Andrew said, this is still currently possible. However, now that Verbum is available as a standalone application, the command is deprecated and may be removed in a future release.

We do not recommend downloading Logos then using "set verbum to yes" for new installations of the software.

Your own words imply that soon we will need to have both installed. And you are implying that new users already should install both. 

Sorry for delay in replying. 

Posts 5253
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 5:30 PM

I have both Verbum and Logos installed On my computer to show what can happen with a free install. I mean it is great to say look what you can do and then they ask the price and easy to scare someone off but the Logos lets me show exactly what you can do with no layout to study and get people interested in it.  

-dan

Posts 8085
LogosEmployee

David Ames:

Your own words imply that soon we will need to have both installed. And you are implying that new users already should install both. 

No, I'm firmly of the opinion that customers should install just one application.

I'm trying to understand why people think they need to install both.

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 10:25 PM

Donald Antenen (Faithlife):
However, your features will be the same in each.

This is not true - there are Guide sections in Logos that are not available in Verbum ... and unless it has changed recent, Collection Guide sections in Verbum that are not default collections in Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2018 10:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

Donald Antenen (Faithlife):
However, your features will be the same in each.

This is not true - there are Guide sections in Logos that are not available in Verbum ... and unless it has changed recent, Collection Guide sections in Verbum that are not default collections in Logos.

These default collections in Verbum are a great feature, and it would be a shame if Logos installs couldn't use them when they want to.

If you do deprecate the command, please offer settings for features like these.

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Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 9:50 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Customers who need Verbum should run Verbum.

I buy different traditions to expand my spiritual horizons in both content and method.  I am not "one or the other."  I am both.  Since I have purchased both, and both apparently have some different features not available in the other, I would like to take advantage of them.  I don't want two installs because of space.  (SSD is not big enough for both, I like the speed of the SSD and it will likely be years until I buy another computer, having just purchased this one.)  I like that "Set Verbum to Yes" is an option and will deal with the still apparent Logos splash screens, etc.  Although I wonder how hard that would be to make it consistent.  :)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 10:22 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

David Ames:

Your own words imply that soon we will need to have both installed. And you are implying that new users already should install both. 

No, I'm firmly of the opinion that customers should install just one application.

I'm trying to understand why people think they need to install both.

Bradley

At present I am not a Verbum user but I have purchased a number of 'Roman Catholic' resources. It has always rankled me that Logos split its features into two streams. I am wary that in the future Verbum my be the beneficiary of the long prayed for Lectionary functionality and Saints resources leaving the standard Logos users behind.

I don't want a 'heads up' when you switch off my access I want an integrated product even if that means you have to allow the more blinkered users to switch off some aspects of the program.

Posts 2423
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 5:50 PM

Friedrich:

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Customers who need Verbum should run Verbum.

I don't want two installs because of space.  

My thoughts on why 'Set Verbum to yes' may go away.

I can not find the thread but when Verbum started Faithlife stated that they were using different files for resources for both program installs so that if they ever changed the resource format that they would not need to update both programs at the same time. That is the Verbum copy of a resource might not be readable by the current  Logos program.  They, if I remember correctly, stated that they might have to make changes to the Verbum file format to implement the full Lectionary 'thing'.  So, MAYBE, if they ever fully fix the Lectionary problem new Lectionaries might only run on Verbum and the ones on a Logos install would not be updated until the file format was updated in the Logos install. And the posable prejudice of Faithlife might be that no one on a Logos install would be using Lectionaries so the Logos file format might never get changed to read the assumed Verbum only Lectionaries.  

If, on the other hand, if 'Set Verbum to yes' only changes priorities, collections, and some other setup items then why not expand that functionality.  Add a command 'Save setup to /filename/' where /filename/ is the full path name to a file on your computer.  Then with Verbum set to yes a 'save setup to /Verxxxx/' would save all of the Verbum setup into the file /Verxxx/  and with Verbum set to no a 'save setup to /Logxxx/' would save the Logos set up to the file /Logxxxx/.  Then the current command 'Set Verbum to yes' would be the same as 'Restore setup from /Verxxxx/'. 

The Save setup and Restore setup would answer several questions asked in this thread about changing top Bibles.   Maybe 

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/174028.aspx?PageIndex=2 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:12 PM

I had a chance to ask Andrew Jones, Director of Catholic Products for Logos, some questions about the new product line:

Why was Verbum created, and what distinguishes it from Logos?

What we’ve done with Verbum is taken the Logos 5 software and tweaked it here and there to make it better for Catholics. The idea was that while most of the tools and functions of Logos have great value to both Catholics and Protestants, there are certain things that Catholics do differently that needed our attention. Not least among these is our preferred texts. The software relies on a certain prioritized list of books. Whenever two books could occupy the same place, the software orders them according to this priority list. So, one of the things that we have done with Verbum is put the Catholic works at the top of the list. This may seem like a minor tweak, but it actually has significant consequences

Was there a feeling that Catholics needed a product that was somewhat separate from Logos, which is product with strong Evangelical roots?

There is just no way around the fact that Catholics and Evangelicals approach the study of Christianity in different ways and making use of different resources. It is a testament to the versatility of Logos’s software that Catholics could use it for our style of study and Evangelicals could use it for theirs. This remains the case. Verbum has all the functionality of the main Logos 5 product line. However, I felt that Catholics could be better served by producing a special version of the software just for them. It was important that Catholics could just pull the product off the shelve, open it up, and start using it without having to negotiate any sort of denominational “problems.” So, when you open Verbum for the first time, you will see a Catholic Bible, the Catholic lectionary, a Catholic blog feed and things like that. Verbum users are still a part of the Logos universe, with all the benefits that go along with that, but they have their own home now.

What are some of the new tools that are specifically tailored for Catholics?

One of the things we did was create default segments within the library of texts. There are three of them: Catechism, Church Fathers, and Church Documents. These segments allow for some simple, but very useful, functionality. For example, if you are doing a search on the word “Eucharist,” you can very quickly limit it to just the writings of the Church Fathers or to the Catechism. We have incorporated these segments into what we call the Passage Guide. The Passage Guide is a tool that behaves like a dynamic study Bible. So, if you are reading a certain passage in the Bible, the tool goes into your library, pulls out relevant information on that passage, and presents it to you in a useful format. In Verbum’s Passage Guide, you can see immediately how the Catechism uses the passage in question, where the documents of the Magisterium have cited it, and how the Church Fathers treated it. You can also see when the passage is read in Mass and with what other readings. This is in addition to the normal Passage Guide tools like cross references, parallel passages, maps, commentaries, and the like. You get the same sort of behavior in other Logos tools.

My feeling when Verbum was created was that Faithlife did not appear to realize where the divide in methods fell. In many ways, mainline Protestant denominations, Anglicans, Lutherans and both groups of Orthodox share needs and methods of the Catholics. Yes, each has their own collection of liturgical, catechetical and foundational resources but they need the same support. I think that labeling Verbum "Catholic" provides an excuse to not support it as needed in development (think Saints, Lectionaries and single passage workflows in Logos 8). If Verbum was labeled "catholic" and the appropriate denominational resources given the same support that is given "Catholic", I suspect Faithlife would see a significant uptick in sales to mainline Protestant and ACELO churches.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 9:49 AM

Very helpful context.  Thanks for finding and posting anew MJ.  Smile

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 10:22 AM

MJ, I think it is important to distinguish between what is best for marketing, and what is best for how the software works and is developed.

For marketing, I think Andrew's intuition that Verbum should exist as a separate website, marketing strategy, etc. designed especially for Catholics was and continues to be a fantastic idea.

As regards how the software works and development strategies, I agree with you, insofar as most (but not all) of the features developed by Verbum are useful for any liturgical based tradition. 

I think the best solution to the "Set Verbum to Yes/no" question is that Faithlife add a Setting where the user can choose their "theological tradition" from a dropdown. Settings such as those currently handled by "Set Verbum to Yes/No" could be basic Catholic/Protestant options, but other traditions could be added as well, with different settings, canons, etc.

The Logos/Verbum install could be limited to cosmetic/Marketing and just OOTB default options differences.

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Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 2:43 PM

Fr Devin Roza:
I think the best solution to the "Set Verbum to Yes/no" question is that Faithlife add a Setting where the user can choose their "theological tradition" from a dropdown. Settings such as those currently handled by "Set Verbum to Yes/No" could be basic Catholic/Protestant options, but other traditions could be added as well, with different settings, canons, etc.

This is where I hope they head at least for broad swaths of the liturgical traditions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 3:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

Fr Devin Roza:
I think the best solution to the "Set Verbum to Yes/no" question is that Faithlife add a Setting where the user can choose their "theological tradition" from a dropdown. Settings such as those currently handled by "Set Verbum to Yes/No" could be basic Catholic/Protestant options, but other traditions could be added as well, with different settings, canons, etc.

This is where I hope they head at least for broad swaths of the liturgical traditions.

YesYes

And thanks, MJ for the background recounting as well as pushing for greater usefulness for traditions who are more heavily involved with lectionary use/study.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 4688
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 12:03 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

I think the best solution to the "Set Verbum to Yes/no" question is that Faithlife add a Setting where the user can choose their "theological tradition" from a dropdown. Settings such as those currently handled by "Set Verbum to Yes/No" could be basic Catholic/Protestant options, but other traditions could be added as well, with different settings, canons, etc.

The Logos/Verbum install could be limited to cosmetic/Marketing and just OOTB default options differences.

Well if we cannot have a one size fits all program (and I really think this would be the best outcome) with options for adding in and subtracting sections as required, then Fr Devin's option is the next best outcome.

If the option was only between two swathes of denominations the switch should select either 'Liturgical' or 'Freeform'.

One outcome might be that Faithlife takes a look at the non-literary resources they provide eg Verse of the Day and Proclaim Media and realise that by not having cognisance of the lectionary they are missing many opportunities to kill two birds with one stone. How great it would be if each week we had one piece of smart media that focused on the Gospel reading for the coming week. They wouldn't have to produce more than two or three to hit a major proportion of their users.

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