A Suggestion for 8.1 Homepage

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 7:45 PM | Locked

Rick Ausdahl:

David Taylor Jr:

Rick Ausdahl:

I'm still trying to figure out if there's an organizational structure to the Explore section, and if so, what it is.  It seems very haphazard to me.  Indifferent 

Right now it is just random feeds from various Faithlife channels.

Thanks David.  I hope they put some order/structure to it.  I really don't find it helpful and not at all conducive in terms of effective browsing through as it is now.

I know they are working on customizing your feeds. I don't think the homepage has ever had any "structure" per se. It has always been random articles like a newspaper. I expect the update will be the same in that respect.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 7:46 PM | Locked

Rick Ausdahl:

David Taylor Jr:

Rick Ausdahl:

I'm still trying to figure out if there's an organizational structure to the Explore section, and if so, what it is.  It seems very haphazard to me.  Indifferent 

Right now it is just random feeds from various Faithlife channels.

Thanks David.  I hope they put some order/structure to it.  I really don't find it helpful and not at all conducive in terms of effective browsing through as it is now.

I know they are working on customizing your feeds. I don't think the homepage has ever had any "structure" per se. It has always been random articles like a newspaper. I expect the update will be the same in that respect.

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 8:06 PM | Locked

Mark Smith:
My suggestion is not to get creative, just let people toggle excerpts on or off. It seems they were fine as they were for those who liked them.

I agree

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Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 30 2018 8:10 PM | Locked

Ahhh, a sense of humor. Cool. Now whether its a good sense or not, well, thats completely differemt. Stick out tongue But it's similar to mine, so, back at me. 

Ok, so here's my dream concept:
I dont really care. 

Ok. now, there are some things I do care about. So, in meetings, PLEASE stress the importance of ditching the ads. Oh, wait, some people like the evil disgusting things in their Bible. Some do not. So, there's a way to please just about everyone. The wonderful kill switch. Personally, I love Off by default. Unfortunately, there are those I might call wackos who prefer them On by default. And no matter how blaringly loud it is broadcast from the mountain tops, a nonillion people a day will call/email/chat asking how to enable or disable the ads. So, for that, I do not envy anyone. But, for the rest of us, PLEASE just do SOMETHING to make as many of us loonies happy by being able to disable or enable the deplorable things, 

As far as the Excerpts go, I'd say the same thing should apply, The more we can customize things, by flipping switches, ticking boxes, the better. Because it will always be SWSWSWN (some will, some won't, so what, next). But, to avoid that awful sales attitude, and make things more workable for all, cuztomization works best. Big SmileCool

Now I did say I don't care. And really, I don't. Just let it be clean, and customizeable, and this Bat will be happy. ^v^ ^v^ ^v^

Daniel Di Bartolo:

I'm seeing a lot of Yess in this thread! Does somebody need a ride? :)

Dream with me a little bit here. We removed excerpts because we did hear from many users that our content seemed random and unhelpful to them.

What if we brought it back... but smarter. 

One thing we'd like to explore is introducing excerpts of content that are bubbled up by things like "commonly cited", "most highlighted", popular topics, commonly used media or Popular Canvases and Workflows. 

What kinds of content would you like to see? How would you like us to organize it? When did you find yourself looking for content to read and in what contexts?

Also, some other random Qs for you: did you fire up the app with the sole purpose of reading excerpts-- or did you just come across it while doing Bible study?  

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 2:54 AM | Locked

Daniel Di Bartolo:
We removed excerpts because we did hear from many users that our content seemed random and unhelpful to them.

Then you hear from many users who appreciated them and found it unhelpful that excerpts were removed.

Perhaps excerpts could become customizable, please, so users can choose what they find helpful. It might help to eliminate the cycle of users reacting to FL's reaction to user reactions.

Daniel Di Bartolo:
did you fire up the app with the sole purpose of reading excerpts

No, but in the process of reading the Home page to catch up with blog posts and so on, excerpts are enjoyable discoveries that make us curious and lead us to explore what we happen to already own.

Even Morris Proctor specifically mentions "serendipity" in his videos, how the Home page helps users get into Logos when we don't know what to study.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 2:55 AM | Locked

Daniel Di Bartolo:
What if we brought it back... but smarter

I like the idea.

Daniel Di Bartolo:
One thing we'd like to explore is introducing excerpts of content that are bubbled up by things like "commonly cited", "most highlighted", popular topics, commonly used media or Popular Canvases and Workflows.

This would be a good start. I would personally like to see the ability to select which resource TYPES and SUBJECTS I'm interested in. If I could have excerpts focus on the things I'm most interested in, they'd catch my attention much quicker. Having a ton of excerpts from content I'm not interested in (on a normal day) results in all of them being less valuable to me. Hey, I might even choose to open the program to the homepage! 🤪

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 3:58 AM | Locked

Daniel Di Bartolo:

I'm seeing a lot of Yess in this thread! Does somebody need a ride? :)

Dream with me a little bit here. We removed excerpts because we did hear from many users that our content seemed random and unhelpful to them.

What if we brought it back... but smarter. 

One thing we'd like to explore is introducing excerpts of content that are bubbled up by things like "commonly cited", "most highlighted", popular topics, commonly used media or Popular Canvases and Workflows. 

What kinds of content would you like to see? How would you like us to organize it? When did you find yourself looking for content to read and in what contexts?

Also, some other random Qs for you: did you fire up the app with the sole purpose of reading excerpts-- or did you just come across it while doing Bible study?  

Faithlife is overthinking things again, what defines 'many users', its a statement FL uses a lot to justify changing things not broken but they never quantify what 'many users' actually is against the total user base.  You are not going to hear from the 'many users' who are happy with the way things and so simply going off the one number of 'many users' who say they are not happy is meaningless if you are not prepared to openly quantify that number.

Personally, It was fine the way it was so I was not dreaming of any change to it, it was not broken, to me commonly cited, most highlighted, etc are still random, possibly even more random.  Just because they are most highlighted by others doesn't mean it's going to be of interest of me.  The way we were told it worked previously was the extract were supposed to relate to what we had been recently studying, i.e passage or topic and to me that makes the extract more relevant that something commonly highlighted by other people but might not be a passage or topic of interest to me.  Just stick to what we had previously because it was not broken and didn't need fixing or changing.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 9:43 AM | Locked

Daniel Di Bartolo:

Dream with me a little bit here. We removed excerpts because we did hear from many users that our content seemed random and unhelpful to them.

What if we brought it back... but smarter. 

One thing we'd like to explore is introducing excerpts of content that are bubbled up by things like "commonly cited", "most highlighted", popular topics, commonly used media or Popular Canvases and Workflows.

I would appreciate the ability to customize the kinds of books that excerpts appear from--for example, to only have Logos editions to show, or perhaps control via MyTags.

Daniel Di Bartolo:
What kinds of content would you like to see? How would you like us to organize it? When did you find yourself looking for content to read and in what contexts?

I'd like to see pieces of art/pictures from resources in my library... but I want to be able to curate which resources they're drawn from (via MyTags would be fine for this, but not the only way). In the past, I've actually hidden certain resources so that pictures from them wouldn't appear on my homepage.

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Daniel Di Bartolo (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 10:08 AM | Locked

doc:
Faithlife is overthinking things again, what defines 'many users', its a statement FL uses a lot to justify changing things not broken but they never quantify what 'many users' actually is against the total user base. 

If we gave a percentage, would that make people happy? I'm guessing it would not. Everyone would have a different view on what % was an acceptable "threshold" to make the change. Talking about specific numbers around a product decision is generally unhelpful. The people who want the feature would say "that's not a high enough #, please bring it back.", or even "But what about that OTHER feature. It has less % use and you kept that!". Just trying to give some insight into why we generally don't discuss numbers. 

The reality is that there are many factors that go into making a change, not just the % of users who tell us they like something or don't. 

I'm trying to learn how we can make excerpts better in our new homepage. 

doc:
Personally, It was fine the way it was so I was not dreaming of any change to it, it was not broken, to me commonly cited, most highlighted, etc are still random, possibly even more random.  Just because they are most highlighted by others doesn't mean it's going to be of interest of me.  The way we were told it worked previously was the extract were supposed to relate to what we had been recently studying, i.e passage or topic and to me that makes the extract more relevant that something commonly highlighted by other people but might not be a passage or topic of interest to me.  Just stick to what we had previously because it was not broken and didn't need fixing or changing.
 

Thank you for this specific feedback. I think you make some good points about curation-- if we only showed you content based on "most popular", rather than a subject-- you'd definitely see some things you aren't interested in. 

I really like the idea of "topic" or "subject" having a heavy hand in what content we suggest to you. 

Thanks again, happy to continue to dialogue. 

Posts 1332
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 10:24 AM | Locked

Seems that all of these are good ideas, the original excerpts and feeds, and the new ideas. I'd say do them all but let us switch them on or off, or prioritize, etc, a la Google News customization page.

Caveat, as Cynthia pointed out, if you implement excerpts by highly cited or frequently highlighted, over time those might become stale, as some books will become so popularly read that other books in our library may never have a chance to bubble to the top, no matter what cutoff threshold you use. 

But then the old excerpts (I believe they were hand-curated since Logos 4 or 5) have become stale for a long time already, so good that we will get something new and different soon. 

In general I like this "serendipity discovery" idea, although I rarely have time to browse my Home Page before jumping into a sermon prep.

Thanks,

Peter

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:02 PM | Locked

Daniel so what you are saying is FL wants to continue behind a generalisation as to why they took away this feature, along with others, none of which were broken and instead gave as a home page that is broken, we can not customise it the way we use to be able to do so and are told we have to wait for a future release. FL called this downgrade, an upgrade, a major upgrade, charged us money to get this upgrade without disclosing this information beforehand to customers that they were taking away features that were not broken and releasing it to us with broken features.

If you aren’t prepared to back yourself and not hide behind generalisations then I can’t see how your truly prepared to dialogue.

Daniel Di Bartolo:

doc:
Faithlife is overthinking things again, what defines 'many users', its a statement FL uses a lot to justify changing things not broken but they never quantify what 'many users' actually is against the total user base. 

If we gave a percentage, would that make people happy? I'm guessing it would not. Everyone would have a different view on what % was an acceptable "threshold" to make the change. Talking about specific numbers around a product decision is generally unhelpful. The people who want the feature would say "that's not a high enough #, please bring it back.", or even "But what about that OTHER feature. It has less % use and you kept that!". Just trying to give some insight into why we generally don't discuss numbers. 

The reality is that there are many factors that go into making a change, not just the % of users who tell us they like something or don't. 

I'm trying to learn how we can make excerpts better in our new homepage. 

doc:
Personally, It was fine the way it was so I was not dreaming of any change to it, it was not broken, to me commonly cited, most highlighted, etc are still random, possibly even more random.  Just because they are most highlighted by others doesn't mean it's going to be of interest of me.  The way we were told it worked previously was the extract were supposed to relate to what we had been recently studying, i.e passage or topic and to me that makes the extract more relevant that something commonly highlighted by other people but might not be a passage or topic of interest to me.  Just stick to what we had previously because it was not broken and didn't need fixing or changing.
 

Thank you for this specific feedback. I think you make some good points about curation-- if we only showed you content based on "most popular", rather than a subject-- you'd definitely see some things you aren't interested in. 

I really like the idea of "topic" or "subject" having a heavy hand in what content we suggest to you. 

Thanks again, happy to continue to dialogue. 

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Daniel Di Bartolo (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:26 PM | Locked

We could have done a better job communicating functionality changes on the Homepage before we launched. 

We're working on an article that will list some differences between the old Hompage and new Homepage, which we hope will be helpful. 

Thanks again for voicing your feedback. 

Posts 314
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:36 PM | Locked

If it's any consolation, a major percentage don't like how God did things, either. 
And to answer the question, anything less than 100% would not make people happy. Consider the items that claim to kill 99.9% of all germs. I personally dont worry about that percentage, I worry about the 1/10 of 1 percent of the germs that the item can't kill. That's the germ that matters most. 

Daniel Di Bartolo:

If we gave a percentage, would that make people happy? I'm guessing it would not. Everyone would have a different view on what % was an acceptable "threshold" to make the change. Talking about specific numbers around a product decision is generally unhelpful. The people who want the feature would say "that's not a high enough #, please bring it back.", or even "But what about that OTHER feature. It has less % use and you kept that!". Just trying to give some insight into why we generally don't discuss numbers. 

The reality is that there are many factors that go into making a change, not just the % of users who tell us they like something or don't. 

I'm trying to learn how we can make excerpts better in our new homepage. 

Posts 4835
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:44 PM | Locked

Daniel Di Bartolo:

We could have done a better job communicating functionality changes on the Homepage before we launched. 

We're working on an article that will list some differences between the old Hompage and new Homepage, which we hope will be helpful. 

Thanks again for voicing your feedback. 

This is beyond functionality changes Daniel, FL broke the entry point into the software for the sake of change, want to hide behind generalisations as to why they did this and at this point don’t want to answer as to why they knowingly released the software broken, called it an upgrade and charged customers for it and never warned their customers beforehand. That is more than a communication issue and it goes beyond taking the good will of your customers for granted. FL was living in that dream you are talking about when they though this was an acceptable way to treat customers. 

The problem is they have been living in that dream for a long time and not waking up from it.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 5:12 PM | Locked

The flip side is that software is never released because it is never done.

There are some of us who are grateful to have (an imperfect) L8 now (with updates in the weeks to come), rather than waiting indefinitely for FL to finish everything that 8.0 could have been.

Thanks, FL, for doing your best in the time you had!

Posts 2023
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 6:11 PM | Locked

PetahChristian:

The flip side is that software is never released because it is never done.

There are some of us who are grateful to have (an imperfect) L8 now (with updates in the weeks to come), rather than waiting indefinitely for FL to finish everything that 8.0 could have been.

Thanks, FL, for doing your best in the time you had!

Thanks for saying that.  I have a remaining gripe or two with 8.0.  I bet everyone at FL has one, even Bob.  But good grief--just look at it!  We have an amazing piece of refined software.  I can't get done exploring the Bible in Logos!  

I was grateful to be part of the beta testing and saw a glimpse from inside at the work and care and team effort that made this all happen.  I am very pleased to see L8 and all its improvements and all it has to offer, not held back, but presented to serve Faithlife Customers today. Thank you, FL.

 

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Michael Frederic | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:39 PM | Locked

Yes, Please Bring Excerpts Back. 

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:46 PM | Locked

Curated exerpts sounds wonderful.

Instead of JUST most popular (et al) you could add in a few traditions, baptist, reformed, (etc - maybe one per BP tradition).

Then each tradition could have "most popular", "most cited", etc. Add a couple a week to each, and before a year is past you'd have quite a selection of excerpts... Bonus - you could make the excerpts show up whether we have the resource or not... Might help us decide to buy something. Or bid on a CP, or PP, etc. If we see it as useful were more likely to buy it. Well I am any way. Flashy banners do little. Substance does more to influence my purchase decisions.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:47 PM | Locked

I believe that the excerpts came from a dataset: 

Excerpts
DB:EXCERPTS
2018-07-03T20:50:24Z
excerpts.lbsexc

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:49 PM | Locked

Batman:

If it's any consolation, a major percentage don't like how God did things, either. 



I just had that discussion with my niece the other day. I got to break out that great Tim Keller quote "If your god never disagrees with you, you might just be worshiping an idealized version of yourself".

Really her objection was with the ways in which sin broke the world, and we got there. But still. I LOVE that shes asking deep questions. Maybe she'll be a future Logos user :)

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