Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?

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This post has 128 Replies | 10 Followers

Posts 3056
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 9:22 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Thanks for the list and also noting the functions that are being talked about and which ones have been deprecated.

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Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 9:30 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Thanks Phil

This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 10:13 AM

Phil,

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the Logos 7 feature I find myself missing the most is that the version 8 Passage Guide does not generate a hyperlink to the passage you are studying as the version 7 did. I did not realize how much I used this until it disappeared. Sure I can click the back arrow in my bible, but sometimes my study has taken me a half dozen or more clicks away from my original passage.

Posts 43
Cromwell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 11:17 AM

Graham Owen:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Thanks Phil

This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.

Phil, this is indeed a very helpful list.  I have looked carefully but don't see any mention of the movement of the parallel resources button from left to right (https://community.logos.com/forums/p/174324/1010110.aspx#1010110) The change means this frequently-used button is not available in narrow windows.  Is a return to the much more usable position on the left hand side being considered?  It's currently a reason for me not to upgrade.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 12:56 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

The problem with the Saints card is not well described ... probably because my first reports hadn't figured out the fundamental problem.

LOGOS 8 Saint resources are treated essentially as Daily Devotionals - lacking the date control (and hence, saint list control) of Logos 7 ... this is useful for personal devotions

LOGOS 7 Used a specific resource to index saint resources into a sanctoral (worship) cycle that was used to plan liturgies and worships. Along side the lectionary it allows for a complete planning of the worship service.

Two very different uses which could be combined, but if there is a choice, bringing back the liturgical use is of primary importance.

Solution 1:

  • make Logos 8 function that works like a Daily Devotional with its own resource type that can be created in a PB
  • restore the Logos 7 liturgical saints function - dates handled as for a lectionary - make it possible for people to create their own PB to handle other churches

Solution 2: (my personal preferred)

  • let Logos 8 continue to function much like a Daily Devotional with dates handled as for a lectionary. Resequence the Saints calendar resource to be in date order rather than alphabetic sequence. Allow users to create their own PB resource following the Saints pattern to handle other churches.

Solution 3: (my personal second choice)

  • let Logos 8 continue to work as it does - a daily devotional
  • move the liturgical function into lectionary format - no years required as the cycle is based on (secular) calendar date. Move the index into the resources for the saints into Factbook. All saints in the Lectionary would need factbook entries that at least included a complete list of saints resources in which they appear
  • Deprecate the Saints resource, having moved all the data into Factbook.

If I know which direction you are taking, I will start building a test PB for the Lutherans (ELCA and LCMS)

In all cases, it would be best if the ritual books (missal) and lectionary were linked to the saints calendar.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 86
William Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2018 6:53 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Phil, that is perfect.  Thank you so much for putting together for everyone.

Posts 8974
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 5:25 AM

William Walker:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Phil, that is perfect.  Thank you so much for putting together for everyone.

Indeed this is helpful Phil. Thank you.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 5:33 AM

Phil Gons:

I copied this url into my excel sheet on L8, to have it handy.  But, its not live.  How can I make it live??

Posts 1699
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:42 AM

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:46 AM

JoshInRI:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

Perhaps a deeper look would be in order. Logos 8 is the most significant improvement since Logos 4. Check out Phil's recent summary of changes - https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 3056
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:48 AM

JoshInRI:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

My advice is to actually use it, don't just give it a quick glance. MANY things have improved.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

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Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:07 AM

JoshInRI:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

Have you upgraded yet or are you still on 7.

I would agree that some of the "missing" features and changes in behaviour are adding unnecessary complexity in this initial release so waiting for Faithlife to make a few updates could make sense if you are not already using 8.

I don't think that the finished product will be more complex than 7 though. The real issue here is that 8 was released before it was ready and with inadequate documentation. The latter has been fixed, at least in part. 8 has been described as an Early Adopter version and I'd say that is fair. It still has some rough edges.

There are definitely some happy users here most of whom seem to have been Beta testers so they have had some time to get used to the changes. That does at least offer hope for the future even if some of their gushing enthusiasm is a bit frustrating at times.

Posts 10223
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 8:02 AM

Bruce Dunning:

JoshInRI:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

Perhaps a deeper look would be in order. Logos 8 is the most significant improvement since Logos 4. Check out Phil's recent summary of changes - https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372

I agree with JoshRI. After all the gushy reviews, I wasn't sure ... until I read Phil's list of changes that I assume are to match the web app.  Then Keyah's screen copies of reduced space. Dave's comments on the tabs.  I concluded, no need.

This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.

I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.


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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 9:15 AM

JoshInRI:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

As someone who's been using Logos 8 for a long time now (back to the Alpha), you couldn't be more wrong.

It's certainly true that some things that are different, and it's even true that one or two simple tasks are now slightly harder to perform. But very, very many things are simpler:

  1. It's much easier for a beginner to find specific titles in their library.
  2. It's much easier to added shared documents to Logos.
  3. It's much easier for a beginner to study the Bible where they don't know were to start (thanks to Workflows).
  4. It's much easier to use individual guide sections (you no longer need to create custom guides)
  5. It's somewhat easier to do some moderately complex searches (thanks to search templates)

There's probably other things as well. But #3 is huge.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 9:18 AM

Denise:
This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.

I think living with things the way they are is admirable and certainly less complicated.

Denise:
I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.

I knew that you were not interested in many of the features of Logos but I didn't realize just how negative you were toward recent developments. Of course I don't generally agree with your perspective which you are totally entitled to have but it does make me wonder why you spend so much time weighing in on these issues on the forums.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 997
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 2:34 PM

Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 10223
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 4:17 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Denise:
This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.

I think living with things the way they are is admirable and certainly less complicated.

Denise:
I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.

I knew that you were not interested in many of the features of Logos but I didn't realize just how negative you were toward recent developments. Of course I don't generally agree with your perspective which you are totally entitled to have but it does make me wonder why you spend so much time weighing in on these issues on the forums.

Bruce, you illustrate many of the issues that surround both Logos, and the forum.

I'll respond to your points:

- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church. Not just folks willing to spend hours and hours trying to learn it. I've no doubt pastors' use day in and out is fine. But JoshRI is by far a better representative of who I'm interested in helping. Or the folks that MJ tries to move forward. Or our Florida lady of enthusiasm and her brave warriors.

- Logos has spent umpteen dollars of customer funds to build data sets and more data sets, that remain of limited accessibility to normal folks .... certainly the pastors. Why? Search UI's have been around for decades. L4 was 2009. This is 2018. Do you see the problem?

- They delivered a changed UI, slightly faster, and a couple of major features, one of which 'may' have long term benefit to teaching. I'll bet you won't see the follow-up needed, either for Bible teaching, or the Catholic approach. Bet. They'll head for something else.

- And yes, I use a sardonic approach. But I'm beginning to see FL as the features company. It"s what they do. And maybe that's ok.

- Let me proceed a tiny bit more. Their number one advantage for a long time was their tagged library. But it's badly marketed, poorly organized, and minimally useful to the learning Bible student. Why? A good librarian could do far better.

So, yes, I agree with JoshRI. And I think something has gone wrong in River City. My guess is competition (labor cost pressures).


Posts 6
Mark Bahr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 4:35 PM

I'm a heavy user of the Passage Guide.  Using the guide menu only opens up a blank passage guide that, when a passage is entered, all categories are expanded.  In 7 and prior the guide menu would open up pre-populated according to the active passage window AND with categories expanded and collapsed according to the last use.  I prefer all categories collapsed, and I expand them as needed.  It's much cleaner looking and works faster.  Now, to open up a passage guide that is 1)populated with the information from you active passage and 2)with categories collapsed and expanded the way it was last closed one needs to open it from within a passage (drag over passage and open a context menu, select the passage context, and select passage guide).  It's quite a bit more clunky.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 5:38 PM

Denise:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.

Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.

So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 10223
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 5:54 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Denise:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.

Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.

So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.

I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.

And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).


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