Liturgy of the Hours/Breviary for Verbum??

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Posts 60
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2021 4:29 PM

AMEN!  I couldn't agree more.  The 4 physical volumes with their assorted colored ribbons would be WAY more convenient than the Verbum version if they don't create something for the home page that essentially walks you through a given day's various hours.   Just dumping the 4 volumes into Verbum would be LESS useful than the 4 physical volumes in terms of praying the hours.  And that's why I really have wanted it in Verbum for years now in the first place - to pray it handily without having to carry that thick volume around.  Verbum isn't really the Catholic tool they want it to be without this.

Posts 452
Mark Nolette | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2021 5:18 PM

I agree as well.  Universalis has figured out one way to do this.  Verbum can surely find a way!  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2021 8:25 PM

Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake". I don't know precisely what they will deliver but I am worried that you are setting your expectations to "unrealistic".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2021 8:47 PM

MJ. Smith:
Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake".

Interestingly, a search ( https://verbum.com/search?query=liturgy%20of%20the%20hours&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe ) gets "The complete, official four-volume English edition of the Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) presented in an easy-to-use digital interface for daily prayer." That text does not show up on https://www.logos.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite.

Posts 1263
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 2 2021 6:44 PM

SineNomine:

MJ. Smith:
Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake".

Interestingly, a search ( https://verbum.com/search?query=liturgy%20of%20the%20hours&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe ) gets "The complete, official four-volume English edition of the Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) presented in an easy-to-use digital interface for daily prayer." That text does not show up on https://www.logos.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite.

That does seem to be the “smoking gun” in this case 

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Posts 112
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 17 2021 8:03 PM

There is a "Today's Readings" in the just released LOTH, but when I click on it, nothing happens.

Does this mean I still have to buy a yearly GUIDE? 

Maybe it will work tomorrow.  There's no Hyperlink from "Todays Reading".

Posts 329
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Donald Antenen (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 20 2021 3:46 PM

The "Today" link works for me today. We'll investigate.

Posts 60
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 21 2021 12:59 PM
This one was expensive, even buying as a PrePub like I did. I wish there was some sort of functional dashboard guide for this. I'm happy to have it digitally, but honestly as it appears to me now, I'll NEVER use it. iBreviary is FAR easier and FREE. Honestly, the four volume set is FAR easier thanks to the ribbons, than what this presents. I couldn't see how Verbum could call itself the Catholic version of Logos without the Breviary and think the claim was legitimate. But now having the breviary in Logos I think they need to go the extra mile and actually make it functionally easy to use - particularly for a lay Catholic who would otherwise be totally intimidated. Honestly, to use the 4 physical volumes I need the annual little pamphlet guide for $2-3. Without something like a digital version of that little pamphlet at a minimum, the digital version of these 4 volumes is of limited to use to most lay Catholics.
Posts 1662
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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 21 2021 1:52 PM

The sometime functionality of "Today" is due to a lack of coverage in milestones.

We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.

Posts 2853
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 23 2021 5:18 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

The sometime functionality of "Today" is due to a lack of coverage in milestones.

We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.

Maybe working some days is better than not working on any days?

Posts 60
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 23 2021 8:19 PM

I disagree.  I think if they can't get it to work reliably it's better to just remove it.   Not spending the effort to make it a true home page item that would "pull together" a complete day by hour (office of readings, noon etc etc) really demonstrates a lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic of just what this prayer is supposed to be.   Software developers who care about the authentic practice of the Catholic faith as opposed to just marketing gimmicks would use this license once acquired to do something at least as awesome as iBreviary.  Otherwise it's truly just that - a marketing gimmick to show "catholicity"

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 23 2021 9:53 PM

Patrick Fleischmann:
lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic

Caution: please don't limit this to a Catholic issues, especially not just a Latin rite Catholic issue. The problem similarly occurs for the Anglicans,  some Lutheran, and the Orthodox - Eastern and Oriental.  Faithlife needs to implement the global solution, not just a Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1263
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 6:29 AM

MJ. Smith:

Patrick Fleischmann:
lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic

Caution: please don't limit this to a Catholic issues, especially not just a Latin rite Catholic issue. The problem similarly occurs for the Anglicans,  some Lutheran, and the Orthodox - Eastern and Oriental.  Faithlife needs to implement the global solution, not just a Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.

On the other hand, this is the “Catholic Products” subforum and we are talking about a Catholic product that was released in a subpar condition compared to what we had been led to expect.

We can look at Patrick Fleischmann‘s opinion and ask whether it accurately explains why FL sees the LOTH release as mildly flawed instead of fatally. And I’m not opposed to your point either if FL’s approach impacts these other group. But I don’t think his wanting a fix is asking for a ”Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.”

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Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 6:39 AM

FWIW - I know I am not in the 'right' forum to say this, but in the spirit of good collaboration between the denominations, from the Anglican tradition I really hope we can see some traction on this.

Posts 5584
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:15 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.

Today may be the best example of a day (and a reason) why this will be impossible.

Today is the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church. This is a movable feast that occurs on the Monday after Pentecost on the Universal Calendar. Everyone praying LotH today, unless they happen to have a local feast that supersedes this Memorial, is obligated to pray the prayers of this Memorial. It's not even an Optional Memorial. This Memorial also isn't in the four-volume LotH, because this Memorial is decades newer than the four-volume LotH. (Not only that, but the English prayers and readings for this Memorial still haven't been released... and when they are released, they won't be magically added to the four volume breviary.) For now, the correct thing to do is to use the Prayers from the Common in the customary fashion for Memorials. That should be fun to code... and still more fun to figure out for people who aren't up on all the ins and outs of the liturgical calendar. And this Memorial is far from the only feast on the worldwide liturgical calendar that is not in LotH.

I expect that the most practical way to get what people are asking for--a near-iBreviary experience of praying LotH in Verbum--would be for Faithlife to license the annual guides for the Breviary, probably the national ones for the States. Otherwise, Faithlife would have to create one itself, much as it has done for Catholic Daily Readings, except with links to LotH rather than readings. In either case, you would be dealing with a Verbum resource--an ordo--that is not itself LotH.

Posts 1263
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 12:53 PM

SineNomine:

Kyle G. Anderson:
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.

Today may be the best example of a day (and a reason) why this will be impossible.

Today is the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church. This is a movable feast that occurs on the Monday after Pentecost on the Universal Calendar. Everyone praying LotH today, unless they happen to have a local feast that supersedes this Memorial, is obligated to pray the prayers of this Memorial. It's not even an Optional Memorial. This Memorial also isn't in the four-volume LotH, because this Memorial is decades newer than the four-volume LotH. (Not only that, but the English prayers and readings for this Memorial still haven't been released... and when they are released, they won't be magically added to the four volume breviary.) For now, the correct thing to do is to use the Prayers from the Common in the customary fashion for Memorials. That should be fun to code... and still more fun to figure out for people who aren't up on all the ins and outs of the liturgical calendar. And this Memorial is far from the only feast on the worldwide liturgical calendar that is not in LotH.

I expect that the most practical way to get what people are asking for--a near-iBreviary experience of praying LotH in Verbum--would be for Faithlife to license the annual guides for the Breviary, probably the national ones for the States. Otherwise, Faithlife would have to create one itself, much as it has done for Catholic Daily Readings, except with links to LotH rather than readings. In either case, you would be dealing with a Verbum resource--an ordo--that is not itself LotH.

If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there. (My Divine Office did have it).

I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment. But it needs the card like the lectionary has.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 1:02 PM

David Wanat:
If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there.

Presumably.

David Wanat:
(My Divine Office did have it).

As does iBreviary... using the Commons.

David Wanat:
I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment.

The trick with today's Memorial is that, even though FL can't provide (not-yet-existent) material specific to this Memorial, a "Today" button or Homepage card should bring the user to the Common because it would be wrong to send the user to the Monday of the Eighth Week in Ordinary Time. However, that would really confuse people who don't know that today is a Memorial (in the universal calendar).

I didn't even mention the difficulty that a Today button wouldn't solve the problem of people not knowing what sections they can (or must) take from the Common... something controlled, in today's case, by the rank of the day. The GILH does spell out what you can (or must) take from the Common for feasts of any given rank, but the LotH doesn't include today's Memorial at all, so you need an external information source in order to know that today is a Memorial, never mind which Memorial.

Posts 1263
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 1:05 PM

SineNomine:

David Wanat:
If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there.

Presumably.

David Wanat:
(My Divine Office did have it).

As does iBreviary... using the Commons.

David Wanat:
I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment.

The trick with today's Memorial is that, even though FL can't provide (not-yet-existent) material specific to this Memorial, a "Today" button or Homepage card should bring the user to the Common because it would be wrong to send the user to the Monday of the Eighth Week in Ordinary Time. However, that would really confuse people who don't know that today is a Memorial (in the universal calendar).

I didn't even mention the difficulty that a Today button wouldn't solve the problem of people not knowing what sections they can (or must) take from the Common... something controlled, in today's case, by the rank of the day. The GILH does spell out what you can (or must) take from the Common for feasts of any given rank, but the LotH doesn't include today's Memorial at all, so you need an external information source in order to know that today is a Memorial, never mind which Memorial.

Fair enough. I guess I was talking at a cross purpose.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 24 2021 1:22 PM

David Wanat:
I guess I was talking at a cross purpose.

But I still agree with your points. Yes (Though I do think that the LotH home page card should point to the correct spot in whatever ordo FL licenses or creates for LotH.)

Posts 112
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2021 7:00 PM

The current LOTH in Verbum is nearly useless to me.  It needs a Yearly Guide or an entry in Daily Catholic Readings - like the Lectionary and Missal links to open up LOTH but also to open up LOTH in a linear way so it goes to the Invitatory then to the individual Hours, Morning Prayer, Daytime Prayer, Office of Readings, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer, so I can open up today's Invitatory, if I wasn't able to pray the Morning Prayer, go to Daytime Prayer, or other, and continue on to the other Hours concluding with Night Prayer.  What we have now is a useless mess.

I have to use my Yearly Guide and if I'm going to do that, it is much easier to just read from the printed volumes, Verbum's LOTH is far too burdensome and confusing for me.  Obviously, it could be flawless, even better than iBrevery and other resources, but it isn't.  Are there plans on correcting this?

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