What are your thoughts on the new Pentecostal/Charismatic base packages for Logos 8?

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 31 2018 1:34 PM

I'm curious what other charismatics & Pentecostals think of the new base packages in Logos 8.

I wasn't very excited about previous packages, but these look like a huge improvement. 

What are your thoughts?

(BTW, I went with the Platinum package.)

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 2:25 PM

Rich DeRuiter:

I'm curious what other charismatics & Pentecostals think of the new base packages in Logos 8.

I wasn't very excited about previous packages, but these look like a huge improvement. 

What are your thoughts?

(BTW, I went with the Platinum package.)

Honestly, it seems heavy on Charismatic theology and very light on traditional Pentecostal theology (A/G, C/G, etc).  So many definitive works are still missing from Logos' offerings in this area.  I'll pass on this until they tap the Assemblies of God (and no, I'm not an A/G minister - but their theology is classical Pentecostal) for better material.

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:38 PM

Gary Osborne:
Honestly, it seems heavy on Charismatic theology and very light on traditional Pentecostal theology (A/G, C/G, etc).  So many definitive works are still missing from Logos' offerings in this area.  I'll pass on this until they tap the Assemblies of God (and no, I'm not an A/G minister - but their theology is classical Pentecostal) for better material.

Agreed. I've yet to see a P&C package that's I've though was worthwhile to grab for me (I'm Pentecostal but work in systematic/comparative theology). This round the Anglican packages looks quite good--I'll probably go with Silver. For L7 I got Methodist bronze. There's a lot in both streams that meshes well with, or even is the same as, Pentecostal thoughts and belief.

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Dan Langston | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2018 3:44 PM

The platinum collection is certainly ROBUST!  Congratulations on a great set of resources. I've been using Logos since 2003 and already acquired some from that collection over time. Since I also had some from Pentecostal silver (L6) and Pentecostal bronze (L7)?  I think that was how I did it, I chose to go with Baptist silver this time around.  One day maybe they can put the Horton collection in as well as Larkin collection and of course, the Fire Bible.  

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:36 PM

Gary Osborne:

Rich DeRuiter:

I'm curious what other charismatics & Pentecostals think of the new base packages in Logos 8.

I wasn't very excited about previous packages, but these look like a huge improvement. 

What are your thoughts?

(BTW, I went with the Platinum package.)

Honestly, it seems heavy on Charismatic theology and very light on traditional Pentecostal theology (A/G, C/G, etc).  So many definitive works are still missing from Logos' offerings in this area.  I'll pass on this until they tap the Assemblies of God (and no, I'm not an A/G minister - but their theology is classical Pentecostal) for better material.

I went Diamond as there was enough useful Pentecostal material for me to justify this. Agree that there is a lot of Charismatic material, my personal complaint is that the two are not separated. I would love to see a solid Pentecostal package made up of the materials available from denominational publishers like Pathway Press. I do get the impression though that the issue is as much with the denominational publishers as it is Faithlife.

I have previously supplemented my library with one of the other packages usually the Methodist and Wesleyan, currently not planning to but may change my mind before the sale ends.

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James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 3:24 PM

I’m part of a charismatic denomination, but for my tradition it’s the least relevant bundle of the lot.

To be fair, “Charismatic” is a label that can apply to groups that differ radically on just about any other area of doctrine/ecclesiology that aiming a library at us is like nailing jelly to a wall, so I don’t really hold it against Faithlife, but I’m inclined to agree that a more Pentecostal orientation might help to provide a bit more focus to the libraries.

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 3:25 AM

James McAdams:

I’m part of a charismatic denomination, but for my tradition it’s the least relevant bundle of the lot.

To be fair, “Charismatic” is a label that can apply to groups that differ radically on just about any other area of doctrine/ecclesiology that aiming a library at us is like nailing jelly to a wall, so I don’t really hold it against Faithlife, but I’m inclined to agree that a more Pentecostal orientation might help to provide a bit more focus to the libraries.

I agree that Charismatic is typically a label for a group within a denomination rather than a denomination itself. I think that the only variation I have not come across is a Charismatic Pentecostal :-)  

A key difference for me is that back when Pentecostalism first emerged people were forced to leave their denomination and in merging with people who originated in other denominations a distinctive theology, in truth a number of varying distinctive theologies, emerged.

In contrast, those labelled as Charismatic have stayed within their denomination and extended their theological view to include charismatic teaching. This seems to have occurred at a congregational rather than individual level. 

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 1:23 PM

Hi Rich:

Charismatic n Pentecostal package is always my first one bought even though I am not 100% either. I do believe in Pentecost, gifts of the Holy Spirit, but in theology I disagree with some Arminian thrusts.

Having said that, I am impressed with:

https://www.logos.com/product/155093/wipf-and-stock-pentecostal-theology-collection

And if you look at the price of that collection, it was a very good deal to get the package you got and contains that collection.

Now different gifts call for different ministry involvement, for a broad conceptual framework a good resource that is not available in L8 is:

https://www.amazon.com/Paradigm-Shift-Church-Development-Theological/dp/1889638056/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1544994220&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=paradigm+shift+in+the+church

It really explains the impasse between high church view groups and more spirit oriented traditions. Then it explains the importance of each and the balance that needs to be achieved.

The following resource is very interesting in which it talks about the role of denominations and how they can contribute to a spearhead type denomination that will be key to future Kingdom expansion:

https://www.amazon.com/End-Time-Warriors-John-Kelly/dp/0830723870

Like someone mentioned before, a good complement to the C & P library would be a good baptist one. Missions are their forte, but I wonder how they dare go to places not prepared for spiritual warfare, beats me.

My second library after C & P, was Bilingual, and that I consider very good because it has many good resources from all kind of traditions.

The original edition of House Church book, had a very good description of each of the five fold ministry, and explained well the responsibilities and characteristics.

https://www.amazon.com/House-Church-Book-Rediscover-Relational-ebook/dp/B002MZARBI/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1544994857&sr=1-2&keywords=house+church

One topic that is very important and not very often looked into is the gift of discernment of spirits.

Hope this is of help.

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Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 21 2019 6:24 PM

Agree with just about every point of assessment so far.

Weak on resources that us P&Cs actually want in a P&C library.

I notice how strong  many of the other sect packages are.

I just don't think Faithlife values or appreciates us P&Cs very much. Their actions speak louder than their reassurances do.

I mean, base packages, Fire Bible, Dake Bible, Pneuma, Pentecostal Commentaries, AG publisher, CG publisher, etc.

How long do we have to plead and beg and try to explain who we are and what we want?

Again, I just don't think Faithlife values or appreciates us P&Cs very much. Their actions speak louder than their reassurances do.

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 22 2019 7:45 AM

Scott:

Agree with just about every point of assessment so far.

Weak on resources that us P&Cs actually want in a P&C library.

I notice how strong  many of the other sect packages are.

I just don't think Faithlife values or appreciates us P&Cs very much. Their actions speak louder than their reassurances do.

I mean, base packages, Fire Bible, Dake Bible, Pneuma, Pentecostal Commentaries, AG publisher, CG publisher, etc.

How long do we have to plead and beg and try to explain who we are and what we want?

Again, I just don't think Faithlife values or appreciates us P&Cs very much. Their actions speak louder than their reassurances do.

While we obviously don't know motives or anything like that, I have been stating for many years now that Logos does NOT do a good job, relative to other sect packages, with their Pentecostal/Charismatic base.  It's just a fact.  To not offer the Fire Bible, nor the Life in the Spirit NT Commentary, after all these years when other Bible Software companies do, is nothing short of outrageous.  

And yes, there is much material from the A/G (and others) that needs to be aggressively pursued by Logos.  So many books and publications that would enrich the Logos experience for those of us who are traditional Pentecostals... Sigh...   

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 22 2019 10:27 PM

Gary Osborne:
  To not offer the Fire Bible, ... is nothing short of outrageous.  

I had contacted the publisher of the Fire Bible a while ago and they were, IMO, adamant that if I wanted to purchase this resource digitally, that I buy it somewhere other than Logos. Ben Amundgaard from Faithlife insists on other threads that Logos is eager to have that specific resource in their library to offer the P&C community.

I mention that to say that there are times where FL is lagging on acquiring resources and there are times when the Publisher chooses not to do business with FL, does not see the value in bible software, or has other reasons to not make it available.

In the case of the Fire Bible, it's the publisher that needs to be convinced, not FL. Regarding P&C Journals, I would say that the current Logos-Journal offerings are in a weird limbo of pre-pub purgatory.

My suggestion would be to contact publishers and send them the emails of the right FL employees to get some deals moving. That may be more helpful than simply waiting for FL to move. Getting a denomination (AG?) behind digitizing their denominational libraries would be awesome. 

Just my 2 cents...

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 6:17 AM

Richard Villanueva:

Gary Osborne:
  To not offer the Fire Bible, ... is nothing short of outrageous.  

I had contacted the publisher of the Fire Bible a while ago and they were, IMO, adamant that if I wanted to purchase this resource digitally, that I buy it somewhere other than Logos. Ben Amundgaard from Faithlife insists on other threads that Logos is eager to have that specific resource in their library to offer the P&C community.

I mention that to say that there are times where FL is lagging on acquiring resources and there are times when the Publisher chooses not to do business with FL, does not see the value in bible software, or has other reasons to not make it available.

In the case of the Fire Bible, it's the publisher that needs to be convinced, not FL. Regarding P&C Journals, I would say that the current Logos-Journal offerings are in a weird limbo of pre-pub purgatory.

My suggestion would be to contact publishers and send them the emails of the right FL employees to get some deals moving. That may be more helpful than simply waiting for FL to move. Getting a denomination (AG?) behind digitizing their denominational libraries would be awesome. 

Just my 2 cents...

I remember reading this as well, Richard.  And I have no reason to doubt the truth of it.  What is bizarre is that two other Bible software companies offer the Fire Bible.  They have both offered it for a number of years now.  So something just doesn't make sense.  And that's only one story about one resource.  There are countless other Pentecostal resources, from so many different avenues, that are not offered by FL.  I still have to consider that part of the problem is that they have not devoted enough man-power to seeking out and/or negotiating.  That's all I'm saying.

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Robyn VH. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 10:07 AM

I am a lay person that has been forced to study in non Pentecostal institutes due to availability. I purchased my first logos products in 2015 and was extremely disappointed in the P & C offering so much so I have over the years stopped even looking at the package. Much of the materiali is what I would  term softpopular easy reading not study material.  My academic discount is seldom applied for P & C books. By default I have ended up with the books from Wesleyan package. Woluld appreciate seeing a robust package compiled by individuals who know the products availavable for serious Pentecostal s who want to study The word.

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 10:51 AM

Gary Osborne:
I still have to consider that part of the problem is that they have not devoted enough man-power to seeking out and/or negotiating.  That's all I'm saying

I would agree with you! I am puzzled that some resources have not or are not being published. I know the P&C community is quite large and would expect that to equate into a strong potential customer base. Maybe the challenge is that more of this community is not present in the Logos ecosystem? Either way, I think we could do with some more Pentecostal resources, and I am not too impressed by some resources that probably fit better on the FL Ebook site that have been put into some of the base packages. Not complaining, but I am saying that if I had to choose... I would go with something a bit more substantial.

On a side note, I mentioned the Fire Bible simply because it is such a heated (no pun intended) resource whose entry into Logos has hit the wall. I would love to see the problem resolved.    

Robyn VH.:
By default I have ended up with the books from Wesleyan package. Would appreciate seeing a robust package compiled by individuals who know the products available for serious Pentecostal s who want to study The word.

I have done the same in the past. I felt like the Wesleyan Packages were more attuned to what I wanted as opposed to the P&C. Not sure if that a problem with the packages or my theology because I am quite pleased with those purchases. 😆

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 11:30 AM

Robyn VH.:

I am a lay person that has been forced to study in non Pentecostal institutes due to availability. I purchased my first logos products in 2015 and was extremely disappointed in the P & C offering so much so I have over the years stopped even looking at the package. Much of the materiali is what I would  term softpopular easy reading not study material.  My academic discount is seldom applied for P & C books. By default I have ended up with the books from Wesleyan package. Woluld appreciate seeing a robust package compiled by individuals who know the products availavable for serious Pentecostal s who want to study The word.

Amen to all of this, Robyn!!!!

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Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 11:49 AM

Richard Villanueva:

Gary Osborne:
I still have to consider that part of the problem is that they have not devoted enough man-power to seeking out and/or negotiating.  That's all I'm saying

I would agree with you! I am puzzled that some resources have not or are not being published. I know the P&C community is quite large and would expect that to equate into a strong potential customer base. Maybe the challenge is that more of this community is not present in the Logos ecosystem? Either way, I think we could do with some more Pentecostal resources, and I am not too impressed by some resources that probably fit better on the FL Ebook site that have been put into some of the base packages. Not complaining, but I am saying that if I had to choose... I would go with something a bit more substantial.

On a side note, I mentioned the Fire Bible simply because it is such a heated (no pun intended) resource whose entry into Logos has hit the wall. I would love to see the problem resolved.    

Robyn VH.:
By default I have ended up with the books from Wesleyan package. Would appreciate seeing a robust package compiled by individuals who know the products available for serious Pentecostal s who want to study The word.

I have done the same in the past. I felt like the Wesleyan Packages were more attuned to what I wanted as opposed to the P&C. Not sure if that a problem with the packages or my theology because I am quite pleased with those purchases. 😆

I don't really understand it either, Robert.  When I first started using Logos I thought they were large enough and diverse enough to potentially be a great outlet for legitimate Pentecostal materials.  My hope was that they would NOT simply fall into the predictable pattern of catering primarily to Reformed customers.  I do realize that there is a vast amount of Calvinistic and semi-Calvinistic (Baptist-light) material out there.  And that has rightfully been made available for users.  It seems as if Logos/FL has really done a fantastic job in terms of high quantity and quality offerings for other aspects of their base - Reformed, Catholic, Wesleyan, and Baptist based packages.  But there is just no doubt the Pentecostal packages are really lean.  And that's putting it as nicely as I can.  If FL just added A/G material alone (not even counting CoG or other outlets) they'd have a huge library of really solid, theological material from a Pentecostal position.  It's just such a shame that has never happened.

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Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 11:51 AM

Gary Osborne:
  If FL just added A/G material alone (not even counting CoG or other outlets) they'd have a huge library of really solid, theological material from a Pentecostal position.  It's just such a shame that has never happened.

👍🏽👍🏽 Agreed!!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 1:37 PM

I don't know if this is part of the reason, but back when FL had dedicated product managers for each of the denominations, one of their apparent responsibilities was finding material to add to future base packages.

For various reasons, FL is down to one: Craig, the Verbum product manager.

Daniel (who was the Baptist product manager) is apparently now a general product manager for the remaining denominations.

Ben mentioned that "Management of the denominational product lines is a group effort. We have a number of people with experience and expertise in various denominational needs, emphasis, foci, etc." 

I suspect that resource acquisition is similar to product development. If a resource (bug) is easy to license (fix), FL will get it done sooner rather than later. The more challenging (time? money? rights?) acquisitions might get deferred.

I do know that FL has made an effort to acquire some much-requested resources, but there may be some threshold where it's no longer profitable to pursue a license.

As disappointing as it might be to not have access within Logos to a resource such as the Fire Bible, I don't think we can fault the company, considering what a challenge it must be to ship a great product, keep customers happy, and remain profitable.

As for L8, it was the first version where I didn't upgrade my P/C package. I found what I was looking for in the Standard packages and didn't look back.

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