Dishonest Advertising On Verbum 8

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This post has 38 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 51
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 1 2018 7:35 AM

Very disappointed in FaithLife here.  I'm looking at the Verbum 8 base package - I already have Verbum 7 - and there are many instances like what I've screen shot here with the New Collegeville Bible Commentary. FL is touting "Value if sold separately" in the right hand column and listing $199.99.  But they have also noted "Only some resources from this collection are included."  So the "value if sold separately" is MOST CERTAINLY NOT $199.99 since you're comparing one small piece that you are getting with the value of the ENTIRE collection.    Hardly ethical advertising here.  And they are doing this OVER AND OVER with touting all this value for pieces of collections with the value of the ENTIRE collection.  

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 8:06 AM

Patrick, great catch!  Something is definitely going on there.  I'd need to check further but it looks like they have combined a 2 volume set (one covering the OT and one covering the NT) with an expanded set with multiple volumes that narrow their scope further.  I think this is more of a website error.  I imagine if you emailed customerservice@faithlife.com they could report this issue to the appropriate personal and help you sort out what they are really offering.  

I certainly agree it is misleading and confusing, and is an error that they would want to rectify.  Thanks for pointing this out!  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 51
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 8:28 AM

It's actually worse than 1 of 2 volumes.  If you look in greater detail there are actually TWENTY FIVE volumes when you get right down to it.  And you're getting ONE of those TWENTY FIVE volumes.  So if all 25 are $199.99 is it really even remotely ethical to so much as HINT that what you're getting in this package would be worth ANYTHING CLOSE to $199.99 when you're only getting ONE?  And I think FL is going quite a bit further than hinting.

And when I compare the Verbum 8 Starter Upgrade (Books plus Features) to the Verbum 8 Starter Feature Upgrade (just Features) the first with all the book "value" is $73 while just the Features are $76.  And every single new feature for $76 is included in the $73 books plus features.  So basically FL is charging me $3 LESS to take a BUNCH OF EXTRA BOOKS when many are for all intents and purposes "loss leaders" so you'll hopefully want to finish off all those sets later.  It's just very gimmicky.  A lot of smoke and mirrors.

Posts 131
LogosEmployee

Patrick,

Thanks for sharing your feedback here and apologies for the confusion.  It is indeed a website error that you're seeing in the screenshot of your resources relative to Verbum 8 Starter.  There is a problem with how the overall collection is displaying versus individual volumes within that collection.

We're looking into a fix for this error.  We'll report back to this thread once we've identified the problem and when it will be resolved.

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 5226
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 9:56 AM

The only reason I bought the verbum 8 Library was for the 2 volume New Collegeville commentary. I will be returning it next week.

-dan

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 10:02 AM

New Collegeville Bible Commentary (2 vols.) in fact at this point I may just return all my Logos 8 packages. 

-dan 

Posts 852
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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 10:10 AM

Dan Francis:

The only reason I bought the verbum 8 Library was for the 2 volume New Collegeville commentary. I will be returning it next week.

-dan

What level did you buy, Dan? It is in Verbum Diamond and up (as the PDP indicates).

Manager, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 2909
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 10:24 AM

Patrick, this website bug has existed for years, at least on Logos.com.

Posts 5226
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 10:30 AM

I bought Verbum Gold Anglican Gold and Standard Diamond but I am returning them all... If they cannot honour a simple thing like including 2 volumes of a two volume set what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.. I do see now that it indicates only some but having saw that the package included 2 volumesI naturally assumed 2 volumes of a 2 volume set  included them all not 1 volume and and introduction. It's perhaps my fault  but it doesn't fill me with confidence. I can take my business elsewhere if they cannot be clear.

-Dan

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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 10:49 AM

Dan Francis:

I bought Verbum Gold Anglican Gold and Standard Diamond but I am returning them all... If they cannot honour a simple thing like including 2 volumes of a two volume set what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.. I do see now that it indicates only some but having saw that the package included 2 volumesI naturally assumed 2 volumes of a 2 volume set  included them all not 1 volume and and introduction. It's perhaps my fault  but it doesn't fill me with confidence. I can take my business elsewhere if they cannot be clear.

-Dan

Dan, 

I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There was no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).

Manager, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 5226
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 11:12 AM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
I'm very sorry. This was an honest mistake in how we display the comparison charts on our product pages. There as no intent to deceive. We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).

I do understand that but I am not willing to pay $199 to correct it especially when the kindle price for the New Collegeville Bible Commentary: Old Testament is  $28.80... I value usability in Verbum but not that much... I do accept that it is an honest mistake, but still left a bad taste and feel like insult to injury the price to rectify that would cost me.

-dan

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 11:24 AM

Craig St. Clair (Faithlife):

Patrick,

Thanks for sharing your feedback here and apologies for the confusion.  It is indeed a website error that you're seeing in the screenshot of your resources relative to Verbum 8 Starter.  There is a problem with how the overall collection is displaying versus individual volumes within that collection.

We're looking into a fix for this error.  We'll report back to this thread once we've identified the problem and when it will be resolved.



Patrick this is present in other base packages too I fear. Not just verbum. Its quite confusing.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 2909
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 11:25 AM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
We are looking into how to correct the issue now (note that it is showing up correctly on logos.com).

Oh good! Smile

Posts 271
LogosEmployee
Glenn Airoldi (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 1:17 PM

We appreciate everyone's feedback on this issue.  We know that including partial collections has been a source of confusion in our product lists for some time, and we took steps to address this with our Verbum 8 and Logos 8 updates.  The good news is that solution exists. If you look at Verbum base packages on Logos, you will see that the problem isn't present on that site.  Unfortunately this update was not deployed to the Verbum site at launch.  We're working to resolve this as quickly as we can.

Posts 51
Patrick Fleischmann | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 2:16 PM

Well, I find the whole idea of these "partial collections" to be an attempt to appeal to the idea of getting a great value.  But I firmly believe it is somewhat deceptive in that you can't get a lot of value out of a small portion of a package.  (In my example of the New Collegeville Commentary, the 2 volumes aren't really 2 volumes.  It's really 25 individual volumes that have been bundled into 2 volumes.  So what it appears you get is just a FRACTION of 1 of those 2 volumes, since what is being included is really only ONE of the TWENTY FIVE.)  So the real "value" isn't so much to the consumer, it's to FL - because hopefully you'll want to buy the rest of the collection.  

My perfect example is the Verbum 8 Starter vs the Verbum 8 Feature upgrade.  Both have IDENTICAL features.  The Starter has a bunch of extra books - many of them marginal "value" because they are just a small piece of a collection.  With dynamic pricing the Feature only Verbum 8 is $76.  With dynamic pricing the Starter with books AND features is $73.  So basically FL is GIVING ME $3 to take all these partial collections.  That tells me how they're really valuing them.  

I have no problem with them trying to entice you to buy whole collections by giving away small portions of those collections.  But call a spade a spade.  Don't tout it as all this "value" you're giving me with all these books that would be SOOOO much $$$$$ bought separately when it's just a sales gimmick to help FL.  Period.   How much "value" is the Introduction volume to the New Collegeville Commentary when there are 24 more volumes after the Introduction?  Exactly how much value would a Bible be (itself just a collection of volumes) if the only part of it I gave you was the book of Genesis?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 3:13 PM

Dan Francis:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.

This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 3:54 PM

MJ. Smith:

Dan Francis:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.

This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.

Ditto.  

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 261
Roger Dittmar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 3:54 PM

MJ. Smith:
Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.
 

Dan Francis, I totally agree with MJ. Smith.

Yes

Posts 5226
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 3:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

Dan Francis:
what makes me confident of them honouring the forth coming titles in diamond.

This is the only portion of your concerns I can address - you can be confident because they have done so consistently in the past, even when it turned out to be a much bigger deal to do than they expected (one of the Hebrew manuscript subsidiaries ... I've forgotten the details). So why did I step in, when Faithlife is "on top of the issue"? Because you are a valued member of the forum community ... I enjoy reading your posts.

It has been a less than ideal day, I am just feeling like I am worried about the fine print. I know while it was not a major concern for me the promised NIV1984 OT RI took years to materialize. I know that FL tries hard to do their best but this issue rightly or wrongly to ME felt like a misleading offer, when I went to rectify it cost was enough for me to say enough. I don’t want to deal with this. 7 was enough in end I had plenty of resources already. 

I do accept that this in the end is my perception and not an intent by FL to deceive. But rather than feeling this way it is just as easy to cancel the updates. 

-dan

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 4:35 PM

Patrick Fleischmann:
 (In my example of the New Collegeville Commentary, the 2 volumes aren't really 2 volumes.

Patrick, I thought I had this all clear.  But the more I look at this set, across the web, it seems the way that Collegeville markets the series is quite confusing.  I was befuddled.  It seems like the OT is broken down into smaller, OT book based "volumes," but perhaps not the larger volumes per book I was assuming.  I get (I think) your frustration at feeling like something being sold as a "great deal" and it really seems like a minuscule, almost unhelpful volume (I mean, how helpful is an "introduction" to a set you can't even use as a commentary...)  You would hope to at least get a commentary section.

The more I think about it, some of the problem seems to stem, as I said above, from Collegeville's way of marketing.  I don't think they were intending to deceive, but it is confusing.  And then Verbum together the various ways it has been marketed: I have seen it as "2 Volumes" and "1 Volume" and 25 or 36 (?) volumes.  But it SEEMS like they all refer to the same, basic collection of commentaries.

Anyway, I am not with Logos, I'm just a consumer.  And I have had my share of frustrations with Verbum/Logos/FaithLife.  But, for the most part, I have experienced them over time to make things right and to listen to their customers.  Much more than any other company I've ever worked with.  I hope this gets sorted out and you find enjoyment with your Verbum resources.  It really is a joy to work with.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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