Logos needs to take advantage of the new iPad Pro

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This post has 61 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 4
Fr. Nathan R. Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 20 2019 4:27 PM

This totally makes sense. I was disappointed as I delved deeper into the mobile app today that there's not a robust "copy Bible verses" tool. I don't need a lot of powerful search features but I do copy a lot of Bible verses in different formats for sermon prep, Bible studies, and so on. That definitely introduces some unfortunate friction if I were to make an iPad Air or Pro my primary device.

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 21 2019 3:00 AM

Dr. Michael Wilson:

logos can start by giving 4 panes.  I used to have a palm device and I would run olive tree on it. Olive tree have me 2 panes and no Bible software has advanced beyond that, in all these years.  That is my major complaint with everyone.  Olive tree, Accordance and Logos are all stuck and these is no reason that we can’t have a little itty bitty bit more

In case no one has mentioned this yet, there's a way to get around this.

Since there's a couple of Logos clones, namely Logos, Faithlife study Bible, ebooks, Noet.

You can choose 3 of these. Open 2 of them side by side, and than 1 "floating" on the right. Where each gives you 2 panes. So you can have 6 lanes on the display at once.

Or, you can have a "multi virtual desktop" experience. On 1 split screen, choose 2 apps from above. In another split screen, choose 2 apps from above. Now you have each "virtual desktop" having 4 panes and you can use multitasking gesture to get between them.

The limitation is those pane aren't sync'd, and resources download separately. So you need to be prepared on what kind of resources you want from which part of the screens.

But this method is faster to switch around then the native Logos method (that you touch the middle button to show up a virtual spaces and choose resources from there.)

When you use long enough sometimes you'll forgot about this is a trick until you found yourself confused that changing settings on one side doesn't affect the other, etc.

Posts 44
Dr. Michael Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 21 2019 11:19 AM

Yes, I regularly open Logos and Accordance side by side to fake 4 pains. It is still lazy to not have 4 lanes or three columns or something

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 21 2019 1:26 PM

One could say so, but on the other hand, I don’t see they‘re going to change that. suggestions like this has been suggested when the iPad first shipped (amazingly Logos has an iPad app first the first day iPad is available.)

(And the having a few Logos clone means the side by side method can be used for the same Logos resources, not Logos plus something else. It can be quite useful in some other ways too. Eg I have the Noet app doing the job of a dictionary app where I have some English dictionaries opened and when I need to look up words I can open the Noet app and search immediately (just like any other dict app.) ebooks app for reading plans, have a certain book always ready to be read.)

The only thing really changed since Logos provided iPad app is the screen size and computation power on the iPad (I agree better Apple pencil support is needed, which is a different matter than having a Logos desktop clone available on the iPad.)

But even 12.9” is quite limited (I use it every day for reading, it is not large enough once one starts to partition it.) Even on a 13”/15” MacBook Pro, the screen is not large enough and an external monitor is often needed (in fact my first dual monitor set up is because of Logos.)

And there’s so much misconception around the computational power of iPad comparing to MacBook Pro. People often claim it is as fast or fastest than MacBook Pro. But what does it mean? I wonder for the people quoting that fact, has they look into what algorithms is used in that benchmark and what implication is that (hint: they all involves simple instructions that makes ARM and x86’s difference largely irrelevant)? And also the multi-core score that many people focused on is quite irrelevant for most cases. First, the Hetero-structure of the cores (namely some faster and slower scores used simultaneously) is very difficult to be used efficiently in real world situation. Second, for many perceived responsiveness doesn't quite involved parallel processing; and there's parallelization overhead, that if a certain task isn't long enough the overhead of parallelization will actually slow things down.

I'm not saying I don't dream about having everything doable on the iPad Pro (and I envy those that Logos is the last app they need for that to happen.) But it's just a dream, a nice wish list item, but realistically/practically it just won't happen (I didn't even mention the difficulty around software difference where Mark has briefly mentioned above.) Much of the friction is actually imposed by Apple. They decided unification is not the best experience and the consequence of it is that iPad and Mac needs to coexist, not only to Apple but to the end users as well. I started getting used to the fact that every time I travel I have an iPad Pro and 15" MacBook Pro put side by side hurting my back. (Last I tried to join the unification train it's a complete disaster. Another story for another day.)

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:05 PM

So I have found a way to use the desktop app on my iPad Pro.

Basically I‘m using the iPad as a second display to my mac. I can use the Apple Pencil for highlighting, and have a nice reading experience on a handheld device. And I’m not tied to being in the same room as the Mac. It’s not ideal for travel but it’s so much better than sitting at a desk or having a laptop on your lap. 

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:08 PM

Kolen Cheung:

One could say so, but on the other hand, I don’t see they‘re going to change that. suggestions like this has been suggested when the iPad first shipped (amazingly Logos has an iPad app first the first day iPad is available.)

(And the having a few Logos clone means the side by side method can be used for the same Logos resources, not Logos plus something else. It can be quite useful in some other ways too. Eg I have the Noet app doing the job of a dictionary app where I have some English dictionaries opened and when I need to look up words I can open the Noet app and search immediately (just like any other dict app.) ebooks app for reading plans, have a certain book always ready to be read.)

The only thing really changed since Logos provided iPad app is the screen size and computation power on the iPad (I agree better Apple pencil support is needed, which is a different matter than having a Logos desktop clone available on the iPad.)

But even 12.9” is quite limited (I use it every day for reading, it is not large enough once one starts to partition it.) Even on a 13”/15” MacBook Pro, the screen is not large enough and an external monitor is often needed (in fact my first dual monitor set up is because of Logos.)

And there’s so much misconception around the computational power of iPad comparing to MacBook Pro. People often claim it is as fast or fastest than MacBook Pro. But what does it mean? I wonder for the people quoting that fact, has they look into what algorithms is used in that benchmark and what implication is that (hint: they all involves simple instructions that makes ARM and x86’s difference largely irrelevant)? And also the multi-core score that many people focused on is quite irrelevant for most cases. First, the Hetero-structure of the cores (namely some faster and slower scores used simultaneously) is very difficult to be used efficiently in real world situation. Second, for many perceived responsiveness doesn't quite involved parallel processing; and there's parallelization overhead, that if a certain task isn't long enough the overhead of parallelization will actually slow things down.

I'm not saying I don't dream about having everything doable on the iPad Pro (and I envy those that Logos is the last app they need for that to happen.) But it's just a dream, a nice wish list item, but realistically/practically it just won't happen (I didn't even mention the difficulty around software difference where Mark has briefly mentioned above.) Much of the friction is actually imposed by Apple. They decided unification is not the best experience and the consequence of it is that iPad and Mac needs to coexist, not only to Apple but to the end users as well. I started getting used to the fact that every time I travel I have an iPad Pro and 15" MacBook Pro put side by side hurting my back. (Last I tried to join the unification train it's a complete disaster. Another story for another day.)

iOS 13 may change some of this 

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:26 PM

Tim Nargi:
iOS 13 may change some of this 

How might that sentence help in any way? Moreover, given Apple’s secrecy I doubt you really can tell if iOS 13 is going to change the situation. Most of those false rumors are often someone’s wish list items than concrete rumors that has any credibility.

The thread is asking Logos to take advantage of the iPad Pro, assuming its current capability should be unleashed in its Logos app. By referring to something (which you didn’t even list any) that doesn’t exist yet, how can that be relevant to this thread?

Posts 27111
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:28 PM

Tim Nargi:
iOS 13 may change some of this 

Change what specifically? 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:42 PM

The unification element the user above posted about. Marzipan (one development app for iOS and MacOS) is supposed to be much more prevalent in ios13. If this is the case, Logos may be able to develop a MacOS app that works on iOS or vice versa. We shall see how intertwined the two really will become. 

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:45 PM

My previous post got deleted, but I already use desktop Logos on my iPad Pro. Basically I use the iPad as a second monitor, but I can be in another room. I use the Apple Pencil for highlighting and read my personal books on my iPad. Doesn’t help with traveling but it’s much better than sitting at a desk.

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 6:57 PM

Tim Nargi:

The unification element the user above posted about. Marzipan (one development app for iOS and MacOS) is supposed to be much more prevalent in ios13. If this is the case, Logos may be able to develop a MacOS app that works on iOS or vice versa. We shall see how intertwined the two really will become. 

If you understand Marzipan as it is, it is irrelevant. It will be relevant if one is asking a light weight version of Logos on macOS that function more like the iOS Logos.

And if it is a wishful thinking that Marzipan can benefit the other way around, then wait until that wish to come true before making that into discussion like this. Chances are that ain't going to happen. But who knows? More importantly it's just a waste of time to discuss what a rumored feature (which in this case again it is more like a wish list item rather than a credible rumor, but even if it is credible, it is still rumored and at best available in the future but not now) might benefit in this case, because it is focusing on what is available right now (where I'd argue it is a false assumption to think the current offering in iPad Pro software and hardware really empowered Logos to better use the features it provides.)

By the way given what Marzipan is currently, it will just provide you an inferior macOS software that doesn't respect many of the behavior that defines a macOS app. Not that the current Logos on macOS is respecting many of these behavior though. (So called native macOS app or not.)

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 7:00 PM

Tim Nargi:

My previous post got deleted, but I already use desktop Logos on my iPad Pro. Basically I use the iPad as a second monitor, but I can be in another room. I use the Apple Pencil for highlighting and read my personal books on my iPad. Doesn’t help with traveling but it’s much better than sitting at a desk.

This one is interesting. Which app are you using? I use both Duet and Astropad and the former one should be better in this application.

How touch screen friendly is the macOS Logos on iPad Pro? (I think I briefly tried this before but I don't like it.)

Recent update from Duet gives us hardware acceleration which should gives better rendering experience.

Posts 44
Dr. Michael Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 7:02 PM

You can read the post that started it all and it tells exactly what I want. Back when I have a Palm V I had olive tree bible software on it.  I gave me 2 panes, one above the other.  It was great and wonderful and I used it every day.  Now in 2019 we have more power in our mobile devices than people can imagine and I have olive tree, accordance and Logos.  all three give me 2 panes, one on top of the other, or side by side.  ZERO advancement in the use of screen Realestate.  With the size of phones and tables I should be able to get 4 or maybe 6 or "better get ready for this amazing unrealistic request) 8.  and how about a few tabs on the screen.  Or stay stuck in the 80s with the UI.

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 7:12 PM

Kolen Cheung:

Tim Nargi:

My previous post got deleted, but I already use desktop Logos on my iPad Pro. Basically I use the iPad as a second monitor, but I can be in another room. I use the Apple Pencil for highlighting and read my personal books on my iPad. Doesn’t help with traveling but it’s much better than sitting at a desk.

This one is interesting. Which app are you using? I use both Duet and Astropad and the former one should be better in this application.

How touch screen friendly is the macOS Logos on iPad Pro? (I think I briefly tried this before but I don't like it.)

Recent update from Duet gives us hardware acceleration which should gives better rendering experience.

Im using a Luna Display from the makers of Astropad. It is also hardware accelerated and is a dongle that plugs into my mac. The dongle tells macos it is a second display and you can use the Luna App or Astropad over WiFi or Ethernet to send the second display to the iPad. It will also recognize an external iPad keyboard, but not the software iOS keyboard, unless you use Astropad studio. However, you can enable to Mac virtual keyboard and you can run a keyboard with just the tablet that way. Astropad studio will give you a keyboard and a custom workspace where you can map buttons to keyboard shortcuts, and use modifier keys with preset multitouch gestures. This makes the non Touch workspace much easier to navigate. However it does cost extra money for Luna and Astropad studio. I use them for artwork so I repurposed them for Logos. 

With the free Luna app, it’s kinda annoying the get around if you don’t have an external iPad keyboard since you have to click with the pencil on the virtual keyboard. But even so, I can still highlight and read my personal books and anything else on my couch, on my deck, anywhere besides my desk. Luna is fast and gives me retina resolution of my Mac on my iPad. The dongle is $70 or so.

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 7:30 PM

Furthermore, I can use Logos desktop from my iPad without ever touching my mac even if it’s sleeping or locked. I run a shortcut on iOS to wake my mac and input my password, which then logs into my machine, and auto launches Logos and Astropad. Then I launch Astropad on my iPad and I’m in. Never have to touch the Mac. 

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 13 2019 7:50 PM

Dr. Michael Wilson:

You can read the post that started it all and it tells exactly what I want. Back when I have a Palm V I had olive tree bible software on it. I gave me 2 panes, one above the other. It was great and wonderful and I used it every day. Now in 2019 we have more power in our mobile devices than people can imagine and I have olive tree, accordance and Logos. all three give me 2 panes, one on top of the other, or side by side. ZERO advancement in the use of screen Realestate. With the size of phones and tables I should be able to get 4 or maybe 6 or "better get ready for this amazing unrealistic request) 8. and how about a few tabs on the screen. Or stay stuck in the 80s with the UI.

I agree with the need of multi pane, but my understanding of the original post is that it's asking much more (not feature parity with those you named but more like feature parity with desktop Logos.)

It's too harsh to say that it is stuck in the 80s in UI design because even as someone who haven't used any UI in the 80s I can assure you UI in the 80's ain't like this. In terms of UI experience, Accordance on iOS is worse IMHO. That's more like pre iOS 7 design and at least Logos is abiding to modern design (eg scaling on iPhone X like device.)

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2019 2:22 AM

Recently Duet also gained hardware acceleration, but I don't have the Luna hardware so I haven't compared them.

The wireless capability of Luna always intrigue me but I've heard that isn't reliable on some WiFi situation. Eg have you tried using it under public WiFi (often throttled) or enterprise WiFi (often limit how devices might communicate with each other), etc.? And how's your experience or how to get around issues like this?

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 14 2019 5:11 AM

Kolen Cheung:

Recently Duet also gained hardware acceleration, but I don't have the Luna hardware so I haven't compared them.

The wireless capability of Luna always intrigue me but I've heard that isn't reliable on some WiFi situation. Eg have you tried using it under public WiFi (often throttled) or enterprise WiFi (often limit how devices might communicate with each other), etc.? And how's your experience or how to get around issues like this?

ive never had a problem on enterprise networks. Never tried public networks. But if you’re on poor WiFi, you can just plug the iPad in with a cable and still use Luna. 

Posts 14
Tim Nargi | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 16 2019 8:38 AM

And see, Apple is getting the hint:

macOS 10.15 Said to Feature 'Luna Display-Like' Desktop Extension Functionality

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macos-10-15-said-to-feature-luna-display-like-desktop-extension-functionality.2178126/

Posts 2643
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 17 2019 10:07 AM

I have used and reviewed both Luna and Duet. If you want to use wireless you will need to be on a WiFi network that allows two devices to see one another. Most public WiFi hotspots won't let you do that. However, the wired connection between Mac and iPad with Duet is best option for that situation. First, you only need to plug one thing into your Mac and it works well. Second, a cable and Duet is cheaper than a Luna and a cable.

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