Case Frames (which is an amazing tool when you get it) displaying wrong semantic role (Eph 1:22)

Page 1 of 1 (10 items)
This post has 9 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 150
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Nov 4 2018 6:02 PM

Greetings,

I get the feeling that this is an under-appreciated tool in Logos. However, I love it. It's one of the more thoughtful linguistically robust tools that logos has. 

I was looking at δίδωμι in Ephesians (reading Mike Aubrey's chapter in Linguistics & Biblical Exegesis where he mentions Paul Danove's work). I wanted to check to see what Ephesians 1:22 was tagged in the case frame analysis. 

It was tagged as Agent-Theme-Benefactive. Great. However, κεφαλὴν is highlighted as a dark blue and as the benefactive when τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ should be (unless I'm totally missing something here). 

From what I have seen in other threads, this might be something connected to the underlying syntax data and that fact that we have object-complement with αὐτὸν and κεφαλὴν. Not sure. Just wanted to point it out. 

I love this resource. Don't disregard this, please! :) 

Posts 150
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 6:04 PM

I figured it would probably be helpful to have a screenshot. 

Posts 26107
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 6:36 PM

Thank you, Ryan. It is so nice to see someone else appreciating one of my favorite linguistic features.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 21702
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 1:31 AM

Ryan Robinson:
It was tagged as Agent-Theme-Benefactive. Great. However, κεφαλὴν is highlighted as a dark blue and as the benefactive when τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ should be (unless I'm totally missing something here). 

Interesting, looking at the Clause Participants section throws some light on this.

So the idea behind the tagging seems to be that God has acted in moving Jesus to a place of authority and rule. So the focus is on Jesus and not on the church.

Not sure which is right but I do like this tagging!

Posts 150
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 4:45 AM

This is interesting. 

I see what you're saying. However, to think of the benefactive (The person or thing for which an action is performed or for which something exists or happens) in the text, it almost certainly isn't κεφαλὴν but τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ. Even in Aubrey's chapter where he talks about this, he says the following:

"If one decides that sense 1a is correct, then the only option for the dative τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ (tē ekklēsia) is an indirect object with the semantic role of recipient."

Although he uses a different term, recipient and benefactive are clearly in the same semantic range. Oh, and sense 1a is the following in the book:

"Transference, Active, Ditransitive (Agent, Theme, Goal+dat), give"

Again, a little discrepancy in that you have the Agent-Theme-Goal frame in his chapter rather than Agent-Theme-Benefactive in his analysis (reminder, Mike Aubrey did a majority of this analysis per the documentation). Oh, and in Danove's representation of things when you have a term or abbreviation with a + then another abbreviation it functions like the @ in a morph search in logos. In other words, "Goal+dat" means the goal is in the dative case.

Another interesting point is that Paul Danove in his lexicon takes it as sense 2 mentioned in the book:

"Effect, Active, Transitive (Agent, Patient), give forth, produce"

But that's a rabbit trail. 

I am still in the place after looking at all this in thinking that τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ is supposed to be the benefactive and something in the tagging is off.

Posts 21702
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 5:26 AM

All fair points - and I'm far from an expert in this area, just find it fascinating!

Is it relevant at all that Jesus and Ruler are tagged as the object with the church as an indirect object?

Ryan Robinson:
I am still in the place after looking at all this in thinking that τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ is supposed to be the benefactive and something in the tagging is off.

You are probably rightSmile

Posts 150
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 6:03 AM

Graham Criddle:

Is it relevant at all that Jesus and Ruler are tagged as the object with the church as an indirect object?

Yeah. I originally thought there might be a tagging error in the semantic data (Semantic Roles) because of the syntax data (Grammatical roles). I think I have seen in previous a previous post(s) that the syntax data has messed with the semantic data somehow.

Posts 26107
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2018 11:03 AM

Report it as a data error - when I am working Logos hard, I average finding about 6 errors an hour.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 113
LogosEmployee

Hi Ryan:

We are glad that you are interacting with the semantic role data, and thank you for pointing this out. You are correct that the tagging is off and that the church should be the Benefactive here. I am working on getting this updated.

.Jeremy

Posts 150
Ryan Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 4:50 AM

Thanks Jeremy!

Just to point out, you have the same thing going on in 2 Thessalonians 3:9 because of the double accusative. I'm guessing you would have checked this. But, I thought i'd throw it out there in case it was missed.

Page 1 of 1 (10 items) | RSS