Bible Word Study and Septuagint References

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Mark Kulikovsky | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 13 2018 6:40 PM

I am not sure if this in unique to Logos 8 or a more general issue, but when I do Bible Word study for a term which appears in both the non-apocryphal and apocryphal books, the 'LXX translation' section only lists references in the non-apocryphal section when I click on the central word to generate the reference list. If you scroll down to the 'textual searches' section (not visible in the attached image) and run the search icon against the LXX (which runs against the same resource as what I have set in the LXX translation section - (LXX Swete) then the references in the resulting search include all the apocryphal references as well

In the attached screen image I am doing a BWS on συνετος which appears several times in Sirach but the BWS guide doesn't show any while the LHS pane shows the results of the Morph search initiated from the 'Textual Searches' section of BWS and there the Sirach references show. Is there a problem in my setup or is it by design that the BWS does NOT show apocryphal references and you have to use the 'textual searches' search function? It kind of seems that BWS does not consider the so-called apocryphal books to be part of the Bible - is that the case?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 7:31 PM

Does your preferred Bible (highest priority Bible) include the so-called apocrypha?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 62
Mark Kulikovsky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 7:47 PM

Hi MJ and thanks

I had NIV set as the preferred Bible and it doesn't include the so-called apocryphal books so I changed it to NRSV (which does have the so-called apocryphal books) and it makes no difference to the Septuagint translation section of BWS (which uses LXX Swete) BUT the Sirach references do now appear in the NRSV translation ring so that partially solves my problem.

What is still not clear is why the LXX Swete translation ring and references in the BWS pane do NOT show the Sirach references when they do show up in the Morph search of the same LXX Swete resource. That would still seem to me to be a problem. Changing to NRSV as the preferred resource will now show the other 'apocryphal' references when you click on the centre of the 'Translation ring' (which they obviously don't when the preferred resource is NIV) but the 'apocryphal' books were always in the LXX Swete resource and so the references should always show up when you click the centre of the 'LXX translation' ring, irrespective of which resource is my preferred Bible. 

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LogosEmployee

The “LXX Translation” section shows how that Greek word was translated from the Hebrew. The book of Sirach was not translated from Hebrew; therefore, it does not appear in that section.

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LogosEmployee

Mark Kulikovsky:
is it by design that the BWS does NOT show apocryphal references and you have to use the 'textual searches' search function?

It is not the purpose of BWS to provide a concordance of all occurrences of a word in a text; that function is best served by Search.

Posts 62
Mark Kulikovsky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 10:02 PM

Thanks for the explanations Bradley - very helpful in understanding why I am not seeing what I expected.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 6:40 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
The book of Sirach was not translated from Hebrew

Coggins resource published in 1998 => Sirach includes (so LXX alignment with Hebrew for most of Sirach could be done)

The book is commonly referred to by any one of three different names: Ecclesiasticus; the Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach; and Ben Sira. These are derived from Latin, Greek and Hebrew respectively. (Grabbe 1992 is usually a reliable guide, and will be referred to again, but here his description of Ecclesiasticus as the ‘Greek title’ of the book is misleading [p. 176].) With regard to the Hebrew, however, we should bear in mind that none of the surviving fragments includes the opening of the book; no Hebrew manuscript offers us anything earlier than 3:6 of the present book. We thus have no means of knowing whether there was an original Hebrew title, and what it may have been.

R. J. Coggins, Sirach, Guides to Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998), 14.

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 8:01 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

The book of Sirach was not translated from Hebrew; therefore, it does not appear in that section.

τῶν κατὰ τὴν ἑρμηνείαν πεφιλοπονημένων τισὶν τῶν λέξεων ἀδυναμεῖν·

οὐ γὰρ ἰσοδυναμεῖ αὐτὰ ἐν ἑαυτοῖς Ἑβραϊστὶ λεγόμενα καὶ ὅταν μεταχθῇ εἰς ἑτέραν γλῶσσαν·

οὐ μόνον δὲ ταῦτα, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ νόμος καὶ αἱ προφητεῖαι

(Prologue to the Greek translation of Sirach)

Logos does not offer ALL the remnants of the original Hebrew Sirach, but it does offer some:

Cowley, A. E., and Ad. Neubauer, eds. The Original Hebrew of a Portion of Ecclesiasticus: Hebrew Text. Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1897.

McRae, Calvin Alexander. The Hebrew Text of Ben Sira: Text. Toronto: Queen Printing Co., 1910.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 10:54 AM

Sorry, it would have been more correct to say: Logos does not offer an alignment of the Greek text of Sirach to a Hebrew text, so there is no data for the LXX Translation section to use.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 11:02 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Logos does not offer an alignment of the Greek text of Sirach to a Hebrew text, so there is no data for the LXX Translation section to use.

Is LXX alignment of Sirach to Hebrew in future plans ? If not, would suggestion is desired ?

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