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PL | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 26 2010 10:42 AM | Locked

I'm excited to get 4.0d beta 1 but disappointed that it didn't contain much user-facing new features that we've been waiting for.  I don't understand why the COM API is available now, ahead of all the other basic features that we've been voting for on UserVoice, such as printing, notes improvements, PBB support, etc.  (Is the API even on the UserVoice list?)

I am concerned that Logos once again displaying a tendency of prioritizing the needs of advanced / super-users over the vast majority of "regular" users, for lack of a better term.

Peter

Posts 227
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 10:47 AM | Locked

A very valid question Peter - although I guess the availability of the COM APi allows developers to integrate Logos with other pieces of software for the benefit of the whole community. Admiittedly this is probably of more use for developer innovation than your average user however your average user will ultimately benefit!

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 10:57 AM | Locked

PeterLi:

I'm excited to get 4.0d beta 1 but disappointed that it didn't contain much user-facing new features that we've been waiting for.  I don't understand why the COM API is available now, ahead of all the other basic features that we've been voting for on UserVoice, such as printing, notes improvements, PBB support, etc.  (Is the API even on the UserVoice list?)

I am concerned that Logos once again displaying a tendency of prioritizing the needs of advanced / super-users over the vast majority of "regular" users, for lack of a better term.

The UserVoice site doesn't set our priorities. It certainly is a big factor in helping set them, but there are also many other considerations that come into play. For example, we promised the COM API to certain third-party partners at the Logos 4 launch, but have been pushing it down the priority list for six months in order to ship all the "user-facing new features" you saw in 4.0a, 4.0b, and 4.0c. It was finally time for us to make good on that promise and deliver the API.

To avoid future disappointment, I'll let you know now that 4.0d will not have a major new user-visible feature; this is by design. The purpose for 4.0d is to keep the Development team shipping code, and to get the minor fixes and improvements that have been made into your hands without undue delay. We'd rather ship small, incremental updates on a regular schedule than hold back 4.0d until there is a major feature ready to ship.

Many of the features you mention have already been started (I count five occurrences of "started" on the first page of http://logos.uservoice.com/ alone), and are available in our internal builds, but aren't ready for public testing yet. Some of these features take months to write, and you won't see them until they're almost ready. A good example is Passage Lists; this was started during the 4.0a beta cycle, but we held it back from public release until 4.0c Beta 1.

 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 11:04 AM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
To avoid future disappointment, I'll let you know now that 4.0d will not have a major new user-visible feature; this is by design.

Bradley, thank you very much for this information! One of my biggest frustrations is when Logos is silent, I would rather be told up front, to sit and chill (except by M.J.) concerning an issue rather than to feel like my concerns/requests are being ignored. 

 

Terry

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 11:14 AM | Locked

Terry Poperszky:
I would rather be told up front, to sit and chill (except by M.J.)

I hereby solemnly swear not to use  "sit and chill", "shut up and sit down", "quiet down I'm trying to study", "can't we drop the subject - there are already more than 500 posts on the topic" in these precise words and phrases in a response directly to or commonly understood as an implied response to a post of Terry Poperszky. This promise shall be nullified upon the 501st posting in a repetitive thread.Zip it!

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2698
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 11:30 AM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
To avoid future disappointment, I'll let you know now that 4.0d will not have a major new user-visible feature; this is by design. The purpose for 4.0d is to keep the Development team shipping code, and to get the minor fixes and improvements that have been made into your hands without undue delay. We'd rather ship small, incremental updates on a regular schedule than hold back 4.0d until there is a major feature ready to ship

Bradley, in this case then I think you made a mistake making it 4.0d.

4.0c SR2...x would be nearer the point (and more accurate) as its bug fixes

I will try and contain my disapointment and try to hibernate until 4.0e comes out.

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 11:36 AM | Locked

DominicM:

Bradley, in this case then I think you made a mistake making it 4.0d.

We tried to find a letter between "c" and "d" when naming this release, and even considered editing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_alphabet to add a new one, or bringing back a letter from Old English and calling this release 4.0ð, but in the end we gave up and just went with "d".

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 11:50 AM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
To avoid future disappointment, I'll let you know now that 4.0d will not have a major new user-visible feature; this is by design.

Having "merging reintegrated" is pretty big improvement too.   I would considered that "user facing", even if the users don't recognize it.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 12:34 PM | Locked

4.0d isn't as exciting as the previous betas for sure. One thing to consider is the need to keep people interested in beta testing as well as to keep developers releasing code. I'm all for fixing bugs, but that seems to be what is involved here. When you release this as 4.0d there will be a hollow sound on the other end of the line, I'm afraid, as most of us expected something like PBBs to be included in the next release.

Not complaining, just observing.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 1:26 PM | Locked

Mark A. Smith:

4.0d isn't as exciting as the previous betas for sure. One thing to consider is the need to keep people interested in beta testing as well as to keep developers releasing code.

The only options that I think we have are to a) ship 4.0d with small features now, or b) ship 4.0d with large features (much) later. (It's just not physically and technically possible for us to ship 4.0d with large features now, as much as everyone--including us!--would like that.)

So the alternative (in my view) to releasing a "disappointing" 4.0d Beta 1 is a (I'm pulling a number out of the air here) three-month break in beta testing, e.g., holding 4.0d Beta 1 until, say, early August when some of these major features are ready for release.

Our beta testers are very important to us, so I'm open to changing the beta programme to a slower release schedule if the community consensus is that beta testers would be more interested, happier, etc. with that model.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 1:33 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
Our beta testers are very important to us, so I'm open to changing the beta programme to a slower release schedule if the community consensus is that beta testers would be more interested, happier, etc. with that model.

Given the number of annoying bugs, I'd rather continue to see progress on some of the small issues than put up with the annoyance of the problems for several more months. Note: I deliberately chose the subjective term "annoying" - I mean the things that drive me nuts not necessarily the biggest in the larger scheme of things. Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 1:45 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
Our beta testers are very important to us, so I'm open to changing the beta programme to a slower release schedule if the community consensus is that beta testers would be more interested, happier, etc. with that model.

I like little-and-often, rather than long waits with nothing. The last week or so before 4.0d was very slow in the Beta forum, so it was clearly time for the next round.

I see the COM API as a big deal, and opens up new options (L3 has a very rich API / Object Model). And yes, COM API was on User Voice (twice)!!!

The new URI formats (Logos and Logosref) are powerful and clean. Nice work.

The new exports are useful and important. More of those please.

Index merge is important.

Ongoing bug fixes and stable code is important. Thanks.

The way I see it, 4.0d B1 already does many things we need and want. I'm not disapointed by it.

Thanks Logos Team!

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 1:49 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
I hereby solemnly swear

 

Matthew 5.33-37 Wink

 

Terry

 

 

Posts 13379
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 2:06 PM | Locked

JimT:
The way I see it, 4.0d B1 already does many things we need and want.

I agree with Jim. If publishers and hobbyists can do useful things with the API that we can benefit from, then it's worth having, and other features are worth waiting for. The URI feature is definitely very useful for those using Logos to teach. I'm sure that during the entire 4.0 development, lots of development time was 'wasted' building better tools that we'll never see for creating resources for publishers and Logos staffers to use. Except, of course that it wasn't wasted time. It's just that the benefits are indirect, not direct.

Posts 1351
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 2:10 PM | Locked

Thanks, Bradley, for your input and for providing Logos' perspective.  That's helpful.

Peter

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 3:01 PM | Locked

I guess I'm a dissenting voice here...I did see some welcome fixes and improvements, some mentioned here in this thread.

If i had my way; EVERYTHING I want would be out next week...but sadly, I don't run the dev's..

Thank you Bradley and company for a job well done, over a long period of time..it probably can get to be hard mentally and physically to put in so much time under such pressing conditions, and we certainly appreciate it.  Yes

 

God bless you all.

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 3:51 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
Our beta testers are very important to us

Bradley

I'd like a fix for Collections (long outstanding) so that it keeps its View setting between restarts when part of a layout. This is so annoying.

Thanks,

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 4:32 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

Bradley Grainger:
Our beta testers are very important to us

Bradley

I'd like a fix for Collections (long outstanding) so that it keeps its View setting between restarts when part of a layout. This is so annoying.

Thanks,

YES!

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 4:47 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

I'd like a fix for Collections (long outstanding) so that it keeps its View setting between restarts when part of a layout. This is so annoying.

I reassigned our internal bug corresponding to http://wiki.logos.com/Bug$3a_Collections_pane_doesn't_remember_view_or_column_settings to be a 4.0d candidate. I don't actually know how complicated this will be to implement, so I don't have an answer right now on whether we can fix this for 4.0d or not.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 4:49 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
I reassigned our internal bug corresponding to http://wiki.logos.com/Bug$3a_Collections_pane_doesn't_remember_view_or_column_settings to be a 4.0d candidate.

thanks!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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