Passion Translation

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Mark Bernard | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 20 2018 5:43 PM

i was perusing my upgrade options today and I was most concerned to see that included in your list of Bibles in the package i was looking at is the Passion Translation. I cant believe that your company would actually place this in the same light as ESV KJV etc. 

There are the twin problems here of lack of discernment on the part  of Logos, as well as a lack of scholarly integrity. Simmons there is nothing in Simmon's training that would suggest that he has the necessary ability to put together an accurate translation of the Word of God.

Is this the kind of disrespect now that God's Word has engendered in Christendom that we can take such a laissez-faire attitude to it? Any Tom, Dick or Harry can come along with their "translation" and that translation actually gets air play in your software?

Here are a couple of quotes from the FAQ section 

“… the meaning of a passage took priority over the form of the original words. Sometimes in order to communicate the correct intended meaning, words needed to be changed.”

“The Passion Translation is more in favor of prioritizing God’s original message over the words’ literal meaning.”

Even Dynamic equivalence has its limitations. It is obvious here that Simmons has deliberately manipulated the "translation" in favour of a clear Theological Agenda, and by Logos' inclusion of this Translation in their list of Bibles has taken my trust in your ability to discern from a 5 (on a scale of 1-10) to an absolute 0.

I have always threatened to do it, and now I guess I finally must, by conscience make the step of finally abandoning any further financial transactions with Logos, tis a pity since I was shooting one day to get the collectors set. No, now its time to switch to Accordance or Bible works.

 

Posts 1677
Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 20 2018 6:14 PM

Hi Mark:

I sympathize with your complaint, and while I know nothing of this version, I can advise you to keep looking...you'll probably find worse. My best advice: If you buy a base package and get a stinker that's not even good for laughs*, hide it; you didn't pay much for it. If you buy one at full price by accident, return it within 30 days.

*For example, take The Message Psalm 8 Challenge. If you can read it without giggling, you win!

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 5:06 AM

Mark,

I have no desire to suggest you go against your conscience or defend the Passion Bible because I have not used it.

Please be aware that BibleWorks is closed and no longer for sale except on the secondary market.

Accordance sells The Message, The Living Bible, The Fire Bible as well as the Quran.

I know Christians that have grown in their devotional study through the use of some of the paraphrased bibles. Not all users approach the Word of God with scholarly intent.

All the best to you going forward.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 6:24 AM

Mark Bernard:
I was most concerned to see that included in your list of Bibles in the package i was looking at is the Passion Translation. I cant believe that your company would actually place this in the same light as ESV KJV etc. 

There are many resources offered by Faithlife that hold a wide variety of theological positions and approaches. Personally I am very thankful that I can access and compare these resources within Logos.

I have not yet read The Passion Translation but I would like to do so in order to compare it with other translations and with the original languages. I'm pretty confident that I will not agree with everything in it but that goes for other translations and paraphrases too.

I can't imagine that most of us would only read resources that agree with our theological position. Taking time to study opposing views and prayerfully and carefully comparing them with our study of the Word is all part of what Bible study is about.

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James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 8:23 AM

Setting aside any specific judgment of the resource itself, if there's a popular/influential Christian resource that I'm concerned about, Logos is the best tool I have to evaluate/critique it. If it's not available in Logos, it makes that task harder.

Posts 1764
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 8:39 AM

James McAdams:
if there's a popular/influential Christian resource that I'm concerned about, Logos is the best tool I have to evaluate/critique it.

Yes Leave the role of discernment on the user, not the publisher/distributor.

I know we are from opposite sides of "the pond" but ever since we both fell under the criticism of another Logosian, I've noticed that more often than not our thoughts are in agreement. I find comfort in our fellowship. "Blest be the tie that binds our hearts in Christian love."

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Posts 2182
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 8:46 AM

James McAdams:

Setting aside any specific judgment of the resource itself, if there's a popular/influential Christian resource that I'm concerned about, Logos is the best tool I have to evaluate/critique it. If it's not available in Logos, it makes that task harder.

Correct. That's why I'd like to see the God Delusion, God is not great and Misquoting Jesus in Logos. Not kidding. I've just not come round yet to create these suggestions in UserVoice.

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 9:09 AM

John Fidel:

Mark,

I have no desire to suggest you go against your conscience or defend the Passion Bible because I have not used it.

Please be aware that BibleWorks is closed and no longer for sale except on the secondary market.

Accordance sells The Message, The Living Bible, The Fire Bible as well as the Quran.

I know Christians that have grown in their devotional study through the use of some of the paraphrased bibles. Not all users approach the Word of God with scholarly intent.

All the best to you going forward.

Accordance will probably start selling it too at some point.

I just recently started learning about the NAR movement and who the key leaders are. I then did a quick search of my library and discovered I already had a bunch of NAR resources in my library. Chances are a lot of us do. You probably already have resources from that theological camp in your library and never noticed them there. If you don't want them hide them. I bet if you called Logos they'd refund the couple dollars you probably paid for them in your base package and they'll disappear from your library all together.

Posts 999
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 9:30 AM

While my tastes are quite eclectic, and I'm firmly convinced of the value of understanding opposing views, I'm sympathetic to the original poster's concerns.  There's a limit to how many books any of us has the time to read.  I remember certain bookstores - back when there were still physical bookstores - where I knew that anything I bought would be worth my time. I might not agree with it, or even like it, but it would be worth reading.  While I love the new world of on-line bookstores because it makes so much more available, one of the frustrations is they are apparently not curated at all.  That makes it harder to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

I've seen this tension between broad, uncritical inclusion and curation come up, in one form or another, on the Logos forums several times over the last few years. I suspect it's an issue that FaithLife management struggles with.  In an ideal world, should the Logos ecosystem include every work that's available from Amazon.com?  Or is there something about the range of works available - separate and apart from the underlying technology - that should always be part of FaithLife's corporate identity?

My personal preference would be for them to have a catalog that's more curated than Amazon's, but perhaps that's just me.

Posts 5238
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 10:26 AM

ESV Psalm 8

O Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!
You have set your glory above the heavens.
Out of the mouth of babies and infants,
you have established strength because of your foes,
to still the enemy and the avenger.
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,
what is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?
Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings
and crowned him with glory and honor.
You have given him dominion over the works of your hands;
you have put all things under his feet,
all sheep and oxen,
and also the beasts of the field,
the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea,
whatever passes along the paths of the seas.
O Lord, our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Message Psalm 8

God, brilliant Lord,
yours is a household name.
Nursing infants gurgle choruses about you;
toddlers shout the songs
That drown out enemy talk,
and silence atheist babble.
I look up at your macro-skies, dark and enormous,
your handmade sky-jewelry,
Moon and stars mounted in their settings.
Then I look at my micro-self and wonder,
Why do you bother with us?
Why take a second look our way?
Yet we've so narrowly missed being gods,
bright with Eden's dawn light.
You put us in charge of your handcrafted world,
repeated to us your Genesis-charge,
Made us lords of sheep and cattle,
even animals out in the wild,
Birds flying and fish swimming,
whales singing in the ocean deeps.
God, brilliant Lord,
your name echoes around the world.

Passion Psalm 8

Lord, your name is so great and powerful!
People everywhere see your splendor.
Your glorious majesty streams from the heavens,
Filling the earth with the fame of your name!
You have built a stronghold by the songs of babies.
Strength rises up
With the chorus of singing children.
This kind of praise
Has the power to shut Satan’s mouth.
Childlike worship will silence
The madness of those who oppose you.
Look at the splendor of your skies,
Your creative genius glowing in the heavens.
When I gaze at your moon and your stars
Mounted like jewels in their settings,
I know you are the Fascinating Artist
Who fashioned it all!
But when I look up and see
Such wonder and workmanship above,
I have to ask you this question:
Compared to all this cosmic glory
Why would you bother with puny, mortal man
Or be infatuated with Adam’s sons?
Yet what honor you have given to man!
Created only a little lower than Elohim,
Crowned like kings and queens
With glory and magnificence.
As lords of creation you have delegated to them
Mastery over all you have made.
Making everything subservient to their authority,
Placing earth itself under the feet of your image-bearers.
All the created order and every living thing
Of the earth, sky, and sea–
The wildest beasts and all the sea creatures,
Everything is in submission to Adam’s sons.
Lord, your name is so great and powerful.
People everywhere see your majesty!
What glory streams from the heavens,
Filling the earth with the fame of your name!

Passion translation notes:

Psalm 8
a This inscription in the Septuagint is, “To the director over the wine vats.”
b 8:2 There may be a vast difference between the glory of the heavens and the little mouths of children and babies, yet by both the majestic name of the Lord is revealed. It is amazing that perfected praises do not rise to God from the cherubim or seraphim, but from the children and babies, the weakest of humanity.
c 8:4 Implied in the text. David looked away from the darkness of earth and saw the divine order of the universe. This Psalm is meant to join the earth to the heavens, and to bring the heavenly glory into the earth, making the heavens and the earth one.
d 8:5 This is the same Hebrew word used for the Creator God in Genesis 1:1.
e 8:5 The concept of kings and queens is implied in the text by the word crowned.
f 8:6 Implied in the text. The Septuagint translation of 8:5-7 is quoted in Hebrews 2:6-8. Today, all things are not yet under our feet. Even mosquitos still come to defeat us. But there will be a time of restoration because of Christ’s redemption, when everything will rest beneath our authority. See Isaiah 11:6-9, 65:25; Matthew 19:28; & Revelation 20:4-6.
g 8:7-8 Implied in the context.

I do not typically read a free translation first but I do value them as a valuable insight on how one may take them. I also value the spiritual insight I often find in Passion's notes. I find it a useful version in it's place, in the same way I find the message an interesting take (even if I have serious troubles with Peterson putting the tomato, a "new world" plant, into the Bible).

-dan

Posts 9954
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 10:31 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Taking time to study opposing views and prayerfully and carefully comparing them with our study of the Word is all part of what Bible study is about.

I just finished Pagel's book on Revelation. The last chapter resonated with this thread. Athenathius' demand, not only for a canon, but not to even read bad books. And Tertulian's comment, questions become heretics.  Times have changed. And their target in Egypt and Africa was similar to NAR too.


Posts 481
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 11:33 AM

Mark Bernard:
I cant believe that your company would place this in the same light as ESV KJV etc. 

I don't think FL selling or even placing The Passion translation in a Base Package does this. If that were the case, I would imagine that those of a cessationist background should be up in arms that a Pentecostal and Charismatic Base Package is even entertained, a la Macarthurs' distaste of charismania via "Stange Fire." This does not even touch on the other commentaries and monographs sold individually and in base packages that are written by critical, nonconfessing scholars who do not believe in "orthodox" theology. Each BP is a mixed bag that must be discerned.

Of interest to note, that Lexham Press (the publishing arm of FL) produced and placed in several base packages Pivec's critique of the NAR:

This post comes from a Charismatic Pastor who cautiously takes part in some of this aforementioned "heresy."  I would be humble enough to say that I am consistently learning and look forward to reading both of Pivec's books as an evaluation of the theology that I adhere to and teach.

As been stated before, Logos is probably a premiere way to read the Passion Translation (really more of a paraphrase...), especially using the Text Comparison Tool to see what the actual differences are in other translations and the OL. This tool would show what is accurate, a stretch, or even a deviation from the text in a plain and comparative manner.

May we all learn to chew the hay, spit out the sticks, and give others the opportunity to do so for themselves as well.

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Posts 999
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:16 PM

Richard Villanueva:

This post comes from a Charismatic Pastor who cautiously takes part in some of this aforementioned "heresy."  I would be humble enough to say that I am consistently learning and look forward to reading both of Pivec's books as an evaluation of the theology that I adhere to and teach.

...

May we all learn to chew the hay, spit out the sticks, and give others the opportunity to do so for themselves as well.

Richard, separate and apart from the substance of this discussion, I very much appreciate the spirit of grace and humility that you've expressed.

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:38 PM

Robert liked your challenge gave me a good giggle -- *For example, take The Message Psalm 8 Challenge. If you can read it without giggling, you win!

Richard Villanueva:
As been stated before, Logos is probably a premiere way to read the Passion Translation (really more of a paraphrase...), especially using the Text Comparison Tool to see what the actual differences are in other translations and the OL. This tool would show what is accurate, a stretch, or even a deviation from the text in a plain and comparative manner.

Richard like others have stated, I have found Logos a great way to compare translations and get a better view of for studying scripture.

In Christ,

Ken

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Posts 2
Mark Bernard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 2:10 PM

Posts 481
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 2:55 PM

Ken Shawver:
Robert liked your challenge gave me a good giggle -- *For example, take The Message Psalm 8 Challenge. If you can read it without giggling, you win!

I lost that challenge!! Ha! Sometimes The Message gets it pretty good, and others times, well... it's just, it. 😂

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Posts 3006
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 3:58 PM

FL doesn't sell those two books and yet it's listed.

mm.

Richard Villanueva:

Mark Bernard:
I cant believe that your company would place this in the same light as ESV KJV etc. 

I don't think FL selling or even placing The Passion translation in a Base Package does this. If that were the case, I would imagine that those of a cessationist background should be up in arms that a Pentecostal and Charismatic Base Package is even entertained, a la Macarthurs' distaste of charismania via "Stange Fire." This does not even touch on the other commentaries and monographs sold individually and in base packages that are written by critical, nonconfessing scholars who do not believe in "orthodox" theology. Each BP is a mixed bag that must be discerned.

Of interest to note, that Lexham Press (the publishing arm of FL) produced and placed in several base packages Pivec's critique of the NAR:

This post comes from a Charismatic Pastor who cautiously takes part in some of this aforementioned "heresy."  I would be humble enough to say that I am consistently learning and look forward to reading both of Pivec's books as an evaluation of the theology that I adhere to and teach.

As been stated before, Logos is probably a premiere way to read the Passion Translation (really more of a paraphrase...), especially using the Text Comparison Tool to see what the actual differences are in other translations and the OL. This tool would show what is accurate, a stretch, or even a deviation from the text in a plain and comparative manner.

May we all learn to chew the hay, spit out the sticks, and give others the opportunity to do so for themselves as well.

mm.

Posts 481
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 4:19 PM

Milkman:

FL doesn't sell those two books and yet it's listed.

mm.

Strange. FL Ebooks also has them available for Wish Listing but not on sale. 

Maybe someone who has purchased Baptist or Reformed Diamond or Standard portfolio can let us know if they downloaded into their Libraries? 

They could be transitioning them from Ebook to Logos format and they are temporarily unavailable? (Sorry to hijack the thread...)

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Posts 2182
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 4:37 PM

Kiyah:
I just recently started learning about the NAR movement and who the key leaders are. I then did a quick search of my library and discovered I already had a bunch of NAR resources in my library. Chances are a lot of us do.

Even EWDM contains articles written by NAR leaders...

https://ref.ly/logosres/evdicwrlmis?hw=New+Apostolic+Reformation+Missions  

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Posts 3006
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 4:39 PM

Chatted online with a sales rep - Angela Lott. She was awesome! She found out an issue, reported it and well, I purchased both books.

Do u need a sales rep? Contact Angela.

mm.

mm.

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