Help me not RETURN my Logos Platinum 4 - TERRIBLE download/design experience so far.

Page 1 of 4 (62 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 61 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 16
Ultralight | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 26 2010 5:04 PM

Third post.  Paid for Logos Platinum 4, attempting install on a fresh/brand new Win 7 ultimate machine with 2.66 Ghz and 6 Gb Ram. 

I'm not sure if there are any other install landmines but would appreciate knowing about them from forum readers.  I know about the dozen hoursof indexing but that can be paused for 4 hours at a stretch. Anything else I should know?

Here are some initial points: 

1. Sales person said he could download in 2 hours.  Even assuming a faster connection and perhaps sales talk to put the software in the best light, I would assume that my cable speed would be fine.

2. Almost $1700 retail software.

3. Must get the latest version via web download because a DVD install will still incur an extended 'update'.

4. Software, per my understanding, is 'forward' looking, designed with cutting edge capabilities. 

5. Pre-sales and sales conversations were excellent even when they were extended to make sure that I covered the bases.  I even received multiple e-mails that were helpful in answering many questions about features and the purchase process.  I assumed that tech support would at least come close to the pre-sales and sales experience.

The sales person seemed to try to preempt some install issues by forwarding me some instructions.  This seemed unusual since install of software is generally a very straightforward experience - even complicated software such as high end video editing or other multi-gigabyte Bible software.

My experience:

1. Download.  Starting last night after I stopped work, I saw 34% completion after 6 1/2 hours this morning.

I have to have quick web access during the day including a 2 hours videoconference.  Downloading took up too much bandwidth so I have to pause it while I get work done on the web.

Surely there's a PAUSE button for download somewhere.  Even freeware allows me to do that via Firefox, let alone a $1700 software.   Where is it?

2. Called level 1 tech support who told me that there's NO Pause & that if I cancel download, I loose everything and I will have to restart. 

I mentioned that I'm leaving on an extended trip in a couple of days and probably should just ask for a refund, the tech then said, 'Wait, let me check'.  After a few minutes on hold, I was told that I could cancel and actual on the next restart, will continue the download from the point that I cancelled.

3. A few hours later, I attempted to restart by clicking the 'Logos4Setup.exe' which was on the download box.  Told that I was up to date and nothing to download? 

4. Called tech support again.  Upgraded me to level 2 Tech support.  40 (that's FORTY) minutes wait time.  (And the same announcement looping over and over again)  Very different from my pre-sales and sales experience.

Walked me through how to restart download.  Realized that with my FIRST tech support call this morning, I should have received download instructions.  No communication there.

5.  Currently still downloading - it will probably take not 2 hours but probably over 15 hours to download via Cable connection.  Level 2 tech support confirmed that my download time is normal so this is quite different from pre-sales conversation.

Additional Issues

1. Provided DVD for Logos 4 is version 4.0A?   Not even 4.0 B let alone 4.0C?  I understand that Logos 4 is continually being improved but that does NOT preclude burning something a bit more recent.  There have been many months since 4.0A.

2.  No instructions came with the DVD.  No print of any type.  This is not just poor communication with the DVD, but NO communication.

3. The provided DVD for Logos 4 is specifically NOT recommended by tech support to use.  After the install using the DVD, the software will still need to go ONLINE and download hours of update.  So the initial install with the DVD is a WASTE of client's time, & set up a frustrating experience as one would expect the DVD to install what is needed with short updates afterwards - typical of other software.

If Tech support can tell customers NOT to use the DVD, then:

a. It should not have been shipped out.

b. Logos should have included a single page printed instruction. This is not something complicated - just print it in a word document.   Surely the client's time is valuable enough to justify Logos putting forth this minor effort?

If I had not spent an hour perusing the forums before install, I would have just used the DVD.

Final Thoughts

1. Installation is the most basic part of the software experience.  

There's NO REASON (pardon the caps but I do feel strongly about this after having so much of my time wasted by Logos) that installation should have been escalated to LEVEL TWO tech support.  Install is a basic event.  This is a waste of you and your client's time.  I assume that level 2 tech support is not cheap. 

2.Please be consistent.  If indexing needs a 'Pause' feature which you provide, install also need a 'Pause' button.

3. Many of your inbound tech support calls are about the install process so this is a known issue.  This is costing Logos $ and wasting huge hours of your clients' time.  We deserve better.

4. Basic printed communication is not difficult.  INCLUDE some instructions with your DVDS.  Do not provide the DVDs if you do not recommend that clients to use them.  This is not a $20 software and your clients deserve better.

I can understand if 4.0 is truly  a new release.  It is not and the problems are known.

5. It seems that there are much easier ways to do installs. 

One example: You can provide the unlockable data on DVD.  So all users have to do is to download the Logos 4.0 software shell, and get the data from DVD. It's simple and much faster.

I run 3 other Bible software and one take multiple gigabytes also.  No issues on install ever after over a decade of use and multiple upgrades. 

6. Some of the issues can be addressed pretty quickly such as the printed instructions or issuing more current DVDs.  (You can just BURN them in house while waiting for pressed DVDs.)   I am unclear why Logos continue to tout the upcoming improvements to Logos 4.0 while not addressing the install issues that has apparently been around for a while? 

7. Per my understanding, you communicate internally about Quality, Customer Service and Price.

While I do not expect Logos to compete on price given its feature set, I'm unclear why quality (taking care to communicate with clarity) and customer service (i.e. tech support) seem to be lacking. 

8. Therefore, perhaps you should consider it a higher priority to first fix the installation experience before continuing to chase feature upgrades?  While not every client will use every feature you are working on, every client will go through the install process. 

Again, just taking the hour to type up and print some basic instructions on paper would be helpful.

Blessings,

UL

ps: Sales technique is another issue but that is grist for a different conversation. I do not mean retail/academic (student/faculty), but how you do your 'specials' pricing.

 

 

 

Posts 16
Ultralight | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 5:09 PM

One addendum.  The fact that I can backup Data, Documents & Users folders for future reinstall at a much faster pace shows that it's easy to implement a DVD with data to be provided to users.

Your current install structure means that anyone with slow connections (i.e .on the mission field) can't use your software?


UL

Posts 648
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 5:32 PM

It will take a few hours to download, but what you might be seeing is that Logos needs to index your books in order to increase the speed of Logos 4. Logos won't work properly until you do this and on a library your size it could take 5-10 hours. You only have to index once. You can right click on the index icon as it is indexing and pause the indexing because while this is occurring your computer will run very slow (it is almost unusable). When you right click on the Logos icon in the toolbar is it downloading resources or indexing? Can't you right-click on the icon while Logos is downloading to pause it and later do the same for the index?

A missionary on the mission field doesn't need a fast internet connection to run Logos, but one is probably needed to install Logos. Remember this process only needs to be done once. This makes the software much faster in the long run. Logos is meant to run on a fast computer. 2 GB Ram on a Mac and 4 on a PC is absolutely necessary for it to really run good.

Logos primarily uses the internet to install books because Logos 4 comes out with updates for the L4 software and the books all the time. Remember Logos 4 is still relatively new and some bus/additions are still being worked out. Logos doesn't want to send out a new CD every month.

Posts 1202
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 5:35 PM

Learningcycle,

  I suggest changing the name your profile displays so it isn't your e-mail address...spambots search forums like these, and will compound your frustration with junk mail.

 

Posts 16
Ultralight | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 5:43 PM

Jeremy, still on download. Not indexing yet.  Thanks.

Ward - I went in and thought I changed the name in my profile but it still shows my e-mail. 

I'll have to figure this out.

Thanks,

UL

Posts 648
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 6:06 PM

What happens when you right click on the Logos icon in your toolbox...can you pause the download?

Posts 25184
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 6:22 PM

learningcycle@aol.com:

Ward - I went in and thought I changed the name in my profile but it still shows my e-mail. 

I'll have to figure this out.

Follow these instructions - Changing Forum Display Name

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 6:36 PM

All I can say is that the install process is not fun.  You have every right to be annoyed by what has happened thus far. Logos has truly dropped the ball on this issue from the start of Logos 4.  But if you can forgive them and get through it, it in my opinion is worth it.  I don't use any other bible software but Logos is pretty amazing in what it can do once it is installed.  Though the constant updates and indexing every time you buy a new resource gets a little old.  I agree on the Sales techniques as well btw.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 6:40 PM

I feel for you brother. My initial download back in November took around 36 hours! Granted it was launch week, I have slow DSL and I have a very large library, but I did and still think putting customers through such an experience is unacceptable. Until the average broadband speed in the US gets faster, Logos should be prepared to offer installation options that do not require such a heavy reliance on the internet.

If I had not been a long time Logos user and had already invested so heavily in Logos I would have asked for a refund. Of all my consumer experiences in 48 years of life this way by far the very worse. There are so many things about Logos 4 I like, but my experience in installing it has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I have yet to recommend it to anyone else fearing that they would have the same bad installation experience I had. It is really discouraging to read that 6 months after it's launch you have had such a bad experience. I was hoping things would have improved.

On the possitive side, I think once you download everything and get it indexed you will like Logos 4. I use it everday now and am amazed at what it can do. There are still some issues, but it is improving with each new release.

If someone for Logos reads this thread, please consider how important first impressions are. The installation process is by far the worse thing about your product. You only have one chance to leave a first impression.

Posts 62
Lester Busald | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 7:29 PM

I am running Logos 4 on my laptop with vista, which has intel core duo cpu  T5800  2.00 ghz  with 3 mb of ram.  I have cable modem and it took about 3 hours to index after install.  I have the scholars Library with approx. 585 rescources.  I'm not sure why so many people are having a lot of hours of indexing, unless their internet connection is slow???  Or maybe with the amount of rescources they have.

Les

Posts 838
Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 7:57 PM

Since the merge indexing is returning, I wonder if in the future, the DVDs can be shipped with a pre-built index and then merged to the machine? And maybe when you get a new book it would have a pre-built index as well that would also be merged. I don't know if this is where they are going with it, but it would be a start. 

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

Posts 9112
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 8:37 PM

Your points are all valid. I know many others have experienced the frustration of long downloads, seemingly infinite indexing, and exasperating hold times for Technical Support. I regret that you feel so frustrated you want to give it all up. I pray you won't.

Logos is a very valuable piece of software that can provide much benefit if you will give it the time it requires to get it set up and learn to use it productively. Some of us have been using this since the first beta days of Logos 4 and have experienced a great deal of difficulty, however I don't think any of us would give our software back. I'd love for the install and all the features to run as smoothly as the best software anywhere. Unfortunately some parts are rough for whatever reason.

Having said that, what the software is supposed to do works pretty well at this point. You will be able to accomplish a lot if you are patient. Some day we all hope the software runs faster and is more bug free. It is improving steadily. But it is usable now if you'll give it some time to get set up and running.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 8:43 PM

I agree with the original poster that the installation process can be incredibly frustrating (though with my computer and internet connection I haven't had his hassles). I agree that a DVD with the current version of the software would make more sense than a DVD with the first release, and that resources could be included 'locked' on the original DVD, to save downloads.

However, even with all the objections raised in the original post, this is no reason to return Logos Platinum 4. The fact is that once installed it peforms exactly as it should and there is simply no product on the market which is even remotely comparable.

I have saved literally thousands of dollars on print resources, and been able to purchase new reference works with a convenience which makes buying from Amazon look like a complete waste of time. I am thrilled to be able to simply download new resources. I welcomed gladly the fact that they no longer have to be mailed out on CDs. This is especially relevant to someone such as myself, living in East Asia.

Add to that the many information management features, and there is no disputing the fact that the product itself is well worth purchasing even with its various frustrations.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 9:15 PM

I'm very sorry about the trouble and frustration. 

We're still adjusting to our new size (and many new staffers), and sometimes we haven't done a great job of getting technical info to all the staff evenly. For example, it sounds like all our reps don't know that we use Microsoft's "build into the operating system" BITS system for background Internet downloads; this component manages the downloads, restarts them if you reboot (without losing what's already downloaded), etc. It even makes our download a lower priority than your "foreground" tasks. (The "B" in "Background Intelligent Transfer Service".)

And it's hard for us to give accurate predictions about download time, since it seems to be different on some people's machines for various reasons. We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control and which sometimes have dramatically different performance (time of day, other loads from other customers, etc.... ?? we don't really know why), and Microsoft's BITS is itself trying to "stay in the background." Different users' systems have different tasks running that can impact how much bandwidth BITS allocates to "background" transfer. Add on to this different locations, computers, etc... it all works in the end, but with less predictability than we'd like. (If we coded every step of the process ourselves, though, we'd lose the benefit of these well tested and fundamentally solid, if unpredictable, systems, and there'd be a whole class of other issues.)

I will see what I can do about getting the DVD updates pushed ahead. Here the problem is that we're updating Logos 4 pretty frequently, as well as updating the Mac alpha every two weeks. The DVD's are replicated in mass offsite. When there's one DVD per year, ordering quantity 1,000 and waiting 4 weeks for delivery isn't a big deal. But in this situation it's hard to keep things current. (I don't know if we mailed a 4.0c master off as soon as 4.0c went live, but if we did, I doubt it would even be back from the replicator yet. And it would be two alphas behind on the Mac already.)

I know this sounds like a long list of excuses, and you'd prefer it just works. So would I! But while we continue to improve both the code and the process, I at least what to offer some explanations of why we're failing to hit our own mark for a perfect experience.

(I'm very sorry, too, about the 40 minute tech support wait. Recently we've gotten our average call wait time down to under 3 minutes. (Our goal is under 2 at all times.) But, especially when going to another queue, we still get backlogged sometimes. We're working on that, too.)

-- Bob

 

Posts 16
Ultralight | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 9:52 PM

Greetings to Everyone who Replied.  Thanks for the empathy, and the encouragement to endure and stay the course.  Apparently I am not alone which is all the more reason for Logos to fix the issues. Some of the issues are not difficult fixes.  Others may be more complex due to the approach Logos seem to insist on.  (i.e. EVERYTHING including DATA by downloads)

Bob, thanks for responding.  I must admit that I'm not sure who you are in the Logos hierarchy but appreciate the response.  (I know, I can do a search.)  I want to note that under any other condition, I would have refunded the software.  I am writing because I am indeed hoping to see Logos be much more user friendly because of the nature of your product - there's Kingdom gains to be made.

So a few quick responses:

1. Appreciate the response. 

2. Your level 2 tech was very good both technically and as a communicator.   Forgot to mention that - meant to but left it out in the flow of writing.  A real asset to Logos.

3. Download time.  From my end as a consumer, don't give me 'best case' scenario when pushing for sales.  Give me realistic scenarios.  Quote for moderate to slowish DSL as a baseline.   Your sales and your tech support estimates are vastly different - meaning that you DO KNOW what is realistic time per your tech support.  Your sales SHOULD provide that!  When I expressed doubt about that 2 hours, the sales made an effort to minimize my doubt.

I do not mind your sales being on commission (I have no idea if that is partial or total commission), and they have been excellent in providing information and following up.  However, I do get a slight sense of their painting a rosier picture than reality to encourage a sale.  Not sure if there's pressure there due to commission structure.  I am sure they are all men of integrity but the expectations that they set up causes for a negative experience when actual experience does not match projected reality.

4. DVDs.  Really, just BURN them in house.  With today's low cost stack DVD burners, you can push many dozens in an hour! That is NOT a high investment.  If churches can purchase the DVD equipment for under $1K, why not a business like Logos?

While I admit that I do not know everything that you are up against, your comment does sound like a justfication/excuse.  I mean no disrespect.

5. You did not respond to my suggestion that you provide the DATA on DVD and then just have your customers download the Logos 4 software for the latest version.  You don't have to respond but it would be nice to know why that would not be workable.   Your tech support certainly did think that it made sense.

6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you  provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs.  And do NOT provide DVDs that you don't want others to use.  It seem like a sales technique to provide DVD on the pretext that it would work well when downloads are a problem. (i.e. When I'm overseas.)  It won't and rightly or wrongly, my perception is that there's an issue in the intent to influence potential buyers' perception in a way that lacks integrity. 

This is so simple!  Why do you not do it?

7. Glad to hear that my tech support hold for level 2 was atypical.  I certainly hope that I do not have to try it again.  Your tech support did explain the situation to me.   I'll note again that if you would provide basic documentation and change your distribution method, your tech calls could be reduced signicantly.

In all, I'm still under the assumption that Logos is not a business that is driven dominantly as a business alone but that it has a sense of its mission as a part of the Kingdom building process.   I've not read your mission statement but given the nature of your product, I made that assumption, fairly or not.

Blessings,

UL

 

 

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 10:19 PM

Ultralight:
Bob, thanks for responding.  I must admit that I'm not sure who you are in the Logos hierarchy but appreciate the response. 
Bob Pritchett is the President of Logos Bible Software.

Blessings

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 26 2010 10:29 PM

Ultralight, I appreciate your eloquent posts.

I share some of your concerns.  It seems that Logos didn't realize how well their new program was going to be received (as far as sales go) and they are having some issues in keeping up with the growth of their customer base. 

They certainly are not going to be perfect (I have to remind myself of this). Posts like yours will help both Logos and the customer and I appreciate that.  You stated your issues a lot better than I would have and in a much better tone than I would have. 

While you didn't elaborate much on it and may not share my views, I want to sate, in general,  that I'm not a big fan of the commission based sale for a number of reasons (esp. Christian to Christian sales).  I want the best price up-front.  I don't want to have to call... or be on a special email list.  I don't think it is right for me to have to pay more for a resource that is discounted to someone else simply because they called or begged or whatever (with the exclusion, of course, of academic or customer wide sale prices).  While I think I could find some 'proof-text' verses on the treating of everyone equally, I'm not going to bring it to a theological debate.

p.s. overall, Logos is awesome...  (thought I needed to throw that in to soften the post a bit... Smile  )

Blessings to all

Posts 2435
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 4:59 AM

I have Gold

took 48 Hours to do a full install to a new laptop (had some dead time when the system needed my help)

Knew it would take a while so gave it the whole weekend [using 780 DSL internet]

 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 5:17 AM

Keep in mind these are my uninformed comments. I do not speak for Logos and the real reasons.

Ultralight:
3. Download time.  From my end as a consumer, don't give me 'best case' scenario when pushing for sales.  Give me realistic scenarios.  Quote for moderate to slowish DSL as a baseline.   Your sales and your tech support estimates are vastly different - meaning that you DO KNOW what is realistic time per your tech support.  Your sales SHOULD provide that!  When I expressed doubt about that 2 hours, the sales made an effort to minimize my doubt.

A legit  concern. I don't know how Logos states download times on their website but would almost expect them not to mention any time and just state the download size with a comment that time will very because of X Y and Z.

Ultralight:
4. DVDs.  Really, just BURN them in house.  With today's low cost stack DVD burners, you can push many dozens in an hour! That is NOT a high investment.  If churches can purchase the DVD equipment for under $1K, why not a business like Logos?

Logos has over 700,000 users. As soon as they put a button on the web that say's "order by DVD or Download" DVDs jump. The actual program is only what, 24 megs or so. Most users I would imagine do not run into problems downloading the program itself but the Resources. As stated in my response to your Number 5, in order for Logos to send out the resources you would be talking about either sending people the resources for their library alone, which defeats the purpose of being able to make multiple copies of one disc, or mail multiple dvds to many users. Plus everything is going to download, not just Logos. Logos would have to invest their money in DVD duplicators that are already on the way to becoming obsolete.

Ultralight:
5. You did not respond to my suggestion that you provide the DATA on DVD and then just have your customers download the Logos 4 software for the latest version.  You don't have to respond but it would be nice to know why that would not be workable.   Your tech support certainly did think that it made sense.

 I can think of several reasons for this. First, Logos has over 10,000 books. My library of 2,200ish is about 10 gigs or so I think. In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing. That would seem like a whole lot of wasted discs considering that most resources sent would not be used. You would also have increased shipping costs. You would also have to spend more developing the software to account for two methods of adding resources, by DVD and download. And then once you've spent a bunch of time loading multiple DVDs on your computer to grab only a few resources from each DVD imagine how frustrated you would be when you are finally able to fire up Logos only to find out that some of the resources have been updated and you have to download them anyway! Case in point when 3.0c came out people had 1+gig downloads of the rebuilt interlinear.

Ultralight:
6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you  provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs.

Paper for which version? and how much information are you looking for the paperwork to contain? I could see a flier with installation instructions but Logos 4 continues to add new features and revamp old ones. Detailed documentation given now may be usable for a couple of months, but would soon become incomplete, obsolete and confusing. Plus with all the features in 4.0 that's a pretty heavy book that would cost a lot to ship for something that could be downloaded as a pdf in minutes. I could see a flier included with installation instructions and a "where to begin" section but that's about all I would want to pay for. I would not want to pay for the development, printing, and shipping of documentation that has such a short life when Logos has help built into it (which I think has come a long ways from when we first received Logos.

That's just a couple of my thoughts, for what they are worth.

Posts 1355
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 6:30 AM

Ultralight,

I'm sorry for your bad experience with Logos to-date.

The vast majority of users will confirm that Logos is an awesome company. President Bob Pritchett monitors problems and makes sure they're solved. It seems that their biggest problem is keeping up with their success.  

Your Platinum package contains a wealth of resources. I have the same package and love it.

Your patience will be rewarded.

Page 1 of 4 (62 items) 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS