8.1 (8.1.0.0016) is Now Available

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 5:49 AM

Graham Owen:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 6:54 AM

SineNomine:

In my own life, products I don't like, I don't buy for myself, especially when there are alternatives that I prefer.

*goes back to enjoying Verbum 8*

That's why it's important for prospective purchasers need to be aware of more than the adverts and fan excitement.

I remain impressed that Logos found time for their adverts on the home page (that they knew was an issue in earlier attempts), but not the switch to turn them off. I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.


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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 6:55 AM

Denise:
I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.

And how exactly were they dishonest? That is a pretty big accusation.

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 6:56 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.

That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.

I understand why Faithlife are reluctant to commit to when things will be fixed but as a long term user with a significant investment in the product I think I deserve more than:

  • "We’re still exploring how best to bring these back"
  • "We plan to restore this functionality in a future release"
  • "We don’t currently plan to restore this behavior"

I really do not believe that asking for greater clarity is unreasonable. 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 6:59 AM

Graham Owen:

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.

That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.

I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 7:00 AM

Graham Owen:

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.

That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.

I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 7:04 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
To be 100% clear I'm not arguing that Faithlife should stop working on the new stuff, I think that some of the new tools have real potential. All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes.

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019191392-Changes-from-Logos-7-to-Logos-8 Though it is unreasonable to say when we can expect fixes because they probably do not know themselves. It changes as different things get prioritized. But that link talks about the differences and whether they plan to bring something back or rework it in 8. In some cases it even gives dates.

That article is the one that was eventually published after multiple user complaints about the lack of communication. Let's be clear this was not published, as it should have been, as part of the release process but was the result of the pressure applied to Faithlife by users who were experiencing issues.

I did not say it was published before the release and they have admitted that they should have. But you said in your post you wish they would as if they had not done so which is why I provided the link.

"All I'm asking for is to know what of the "missing" will be fixed, what will never be fixed and for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes."

Point 3 is not addressed in the article though; "for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 7:51 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Denise:
I remain a happy 7 user until they learn a bit of honesty.

And how exactly were they dishonest? That is a pretty big accusation.

Actually not, these days. Current research, the more conservative/religious, the more amenable to dishonesty, if a higher purpose.

But I was referring to the honesty you get used to among close family, friends and church. Versus 'careful wording'. You know the game.


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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 8:28 AM

Graham Owen:
for the stuff that will be fixed when can we expect the fixes

Past experience has shown FL that there will be complaints if FL misses an expected delivery date.

If FL provided dates, I imagine that there would even be complaints about prioritization. "Why are you fixing X before Y?"

Not providing dates probably helps to minimize the amount of complaints FL would get.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:07 AM

Those in software industry know that there is no paradise on the earth. 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:53 AM

PetahChristian:
Past experience has shown FL that there will be complaints if FL misses an expected delivery date.

Past experience also shows that users get frustrated by Faithlife's lack of clear communications in these situations. There's a lot of past experience that Faithlife choose not to learn from or ignore.

PetahChristian:
If FL provided dates, I imagine that there would even be complaints about prioritization. "Why are you fixing X before Y?"

I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...

PetahChristian:
Not providing dates probably helps to minimize the amount of complaints FL would get.

Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:56 AM

Graham Owen:
I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...

I don't think that is fair considering some of the complaints were addressed and resolved in 8.1.

Graham Owen:
Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.

Faithlife does more than MOST companies with regard to allowing its users to have input on its software. Hardly a sign of disrespect.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 10:58 AM

Denise:
Versus 'careful wording'. You know the game.

Unfortunately far too often with FL there has been too many misunderstandings and marketing with seemingly misleading statements (often times correctable if you follow an asterisk). But small print and offers that can seem misleading may be well and good in the business world. I am not asking FL to be a bad business but asking it to strive for more transparency. To let your YES BE YES. I know when I purchased a verbum collection I did not pay close attention to an "asterisk"  and was disappointed to know the 2 volumes i was receiving of a two volume set was 1 volume and what amounts to an introductory pamphlet. Yes had I clicked on the expansion I could have known that I was not getting the 2 volumes of the two volume set but I did not because I did not think it needed to know what two volumes I was getting. Now I am not accusing FL of intentionally be dishonest but I do think it is a bit misleading when you see something like  LifeGuide Bible Studies: Complete Collection (139 vols.) (Expand) Only some resources from this collection are included (while it is clear enough if you look at it carefully if you have a window that is smaller and you can not see the only some resources tag on the far right column it is easy enough to think I am getting these 139 volumes in my package) Would it be so hard to say place it as  LifeGuide Bible Studies: Complete Collection (8 of 139 vols.) (Expand). That way when you do a scroll of a massive collection you know immediately and there can be no misunderstandings. In my case it was an oddity in that the description called it a 2 volume set when in fact it was released as a multivolume collection, hence the ability to offer 2 volumes yet not give you the complete 2 volume set. I do not think FL is intending to be dishonest and indeed careful close looks you are in no way being mislead. But I also think marking may be in there trying to suggest by listing it as they do to make it appears a better value at first glance.

-dan

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 11:09 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
I think we all know that the continued development of new features is going to take priority over fixing what is missing or seen as broken so why not just be open and transparent? That's why these items are being considered while new Workflows are being promised...

I don't think that is fair considering some of the complaints were addressed and resolved in 8.1.

Of course the Release Notes don't detail everything but if you read the ones for 8.1 you can tell Workflows matters a lot to Faithlife right now.

David Taylor Jr:

Graham Owen:
Sure the complaints will diminish through Faithlife's refusal to communicate but that does not resolve the issue here and the silence does not mean that the problems are resolved it just means that the frustrated, ignored, users got tired and cease to expect to be treated with respect.

Faithlife does more than MOST companies with regard to allowing its users to have input on its software. Hardly a sign of disrespect.

Allowing input is not a sign of respect, listening to and acting on it is. There are a lot of users here who feel that their voice has not and still is not being heard.

Faithlife may tolerate dissenting voices here but over a number of years they have consistently failed to improve the way that they communicate, they cause a problem, say sorry, solve or partially solve the issue, then its back to business as usual until they cause the next problem.

The obvious question is why don't we just move on? And the answer for me is that I have too much tied up in Logos Resources and simply cannot afford to right that off and start all over again with and alternative package.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 11:29 AM

Graham Owen:
but if you read the ones for 8.1 you can tell Workflows matters a lot to Faithlife right now.

Or one could say that completing the elements that were not finished for the initial release are their current focus - homepage, search templates, notes, and workflows are the elements I have noticed.

Graham Owen:
Allowing input is not a sign of respect, listening to and acting on it is.

I am in the position of being able to say that L8 finally has implemented all of the items I was actively promoting since L4 - not necessarily precisely as I would have done them but FL did hear and act. And in several areas there is still room for improvements. In areas I was not previously vocal about, I will become more vocal as I find additional weaknesses in Logos/Verbum.

Graham Owen:
There are a lot of users here who feel that their voice has not and still is not being heard.

This is true. But when one is not being heard, it is important to consider why you are not being heard and make changes so that one will be heard. There are suggestions that I write off as improbably for one or more of these reasons: the effort required to change the software does not justify the effort; the request is so tied to a particular way of working as to lack general user application; the request is too specific - working in one context but not across all platforms; the request for priority over xxxx fails to recognize that they require different skill sets and therefore use different staff . . .

Graham Owen:
they have consistently failed to improve the way that they communicate,

They have made progress - they still have a ways to go.

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 1:14 PM

MJ. Smith:
Or one could say that completing the elements that were not finished for the initial release are their current focus - homepage, search templates, notes, and workflows are the elements I have noticed.

Fair point and an equally valid interpretation of the Release Notes.

MJ. Smith:
I am in the position of being able to say that L8 finally has implemented all of the items I was actively promoting since L4

Good to know that your efforts have paid off.

MJ. Smith:
it is important to consider why you are not being heard and make changes so that one will be heard

Or give up and go back to being an occasional visitor here.

MJ. Smith:
the request for priority over xxxx fails to recognize that they require different skill sets and therefore use different staff

I get that, and that is why better communications is required, there are a multiple good reasons why Faithlife have made the choices that they did for 8 and why it will take time for them to address issues that have been raised. Skills is one, architectural choices will be another. I work as a Product Manager in the software industry so I understand the constraints but at the same time I know what the options are for managing these conflicts and high on the list is customer communications.

MJ. Smith:
They have made progress - they still have a ways to go.

As someone who in recent years is an occasional visitor here, rather than being the regular I once was, I am struggling to see the progress in communications, I have likened this release to that of 4 and for me that's how it has felt. 

I have little doubt that by Logos 8.6 or 8.7 things will be fine but personally I still maintain that in its released state and with the lack of documentation on missing features Logos 8 should not have been auto installed in the same way that previous releases were under the connect subscription and that more of the "known issues" should have been communicated to established users, in addition to the email about Notes, so an informed decision could have been made.

At GA 8 was fine for new users and for those who wanted to be early adopters but for others it has proved unreasonably disruptive.

Fortunately for me I have enough experience with Logos to find workarounds for the issues that I have hit but I really do understand the concerns of those users who, for  example, had become dependent on the Home Page as the easy entry point for Bible Study.

I do hope that Faithlife improve their communications especially for the next few scheduled updates, I honestly think that the  long term users deserve this.

Posts 188
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 2:15 PM

I favored Logos 7 home page because I had complete control over it. That control has been taken away and that is where the problem lies. And while we wait on them to return the complete control to us people will complain. It's been the same every release. And I imagine it will be the same in Logos 9. And 10.

Posts 2993
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 2:17 PM

Matt Hamrick:

I favored Logos 7 home page because I had complete control over it. That control has been taken away and that is where the problem lies. And while we wait on them to return the complete control to us people will complain. It's been the same every release. And I imagine it will be the same in Logos 9. And 10.

How did you have more control over the homepage in 7 then what we have in 8.1?

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 8:42 PM

There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application. 

-dan

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 8:46 PM

Dan Francis:

There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application. 

-dan

I have never seen any ads for anything other than FL related products. It comes from specific feeds on Faithlife. So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.

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