8.1 (8.1.0.0016) is Now Available

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:06 PM

David Taylor Jr:
So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.

Wrong: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/175999.aspx. I didn't really care that much about the home page but was quite upset to see the home page being fed from the site without filtration or moderation.

You really don't have to be so quick to defend FL from every criticism. Quite a few of them are deserved, and I think they can handle it anyway.

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Posts 2992
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:13 PM

Sean:

David Taylor Jr:
So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.

Wrong: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/175999.aspx. I didn't really care that much about the home page but was quite upset to see the home page being fed from the site without filtration or moderation.

Fair enough, but it sounds like it was an exceptional attack and they resolved it quickly.

Sean:
You really don't have to be so quick to defend FL from every criticism. Quite a few of them are deserved, and I think they can handle it anyway.

I don't. In fact, sometimes I criticize FL. However, some of the attacks on FL have been OUTRAGEOUS and ridiculous.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:26 PM

David Taylor Jr:

Dan Francis:

There were ads in the new home page including for foreign drugs. I do realize FL considers the software free but there is no way I want outside advertising within the application. 

-dan

I have never seen any ads for anything other than FL related products. It comes from specific feeds on Faithlife. So there is no way a foreign drug was on there.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/175998/1016473.aspx#1016473

Although admitedly it it was a hack and not by design but in inability to customize it meant there was no way to eliminate it.

-dan

Posts 2992
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2018 9:29 PM

Dan Francis:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/175998/1016473.aspx#1016473

Although admitedly it it was a hack and not by design but in inability to customize it meant there was no way to eliminate it.

-dan

Glad we can customize it now SmileYes

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 3:42 AM

Mark Barnes:

doc:

Mark Barnes:

I don’t think L8 was rushed. But it was time-limited. It was the best that could be done in a limited time period. Given that 8.1 is already out, and 8.2 won’t be far behind, I think ”best in the time available“ is OK.

Rushed or time limited it was not ready for release.  FL once again bit off more than they could chew and have turned out their worst home page.

Doc, I appreciate your contributions here, and I trust the following comments will be taken in good spirit. You’re free to disagree, of course!

I don’t have a problem with you being critical of Faithlife or aspects of the software. That’s partly what the forums are for. But if you’re wondering why some people overreact to your posts, this post is a good example of why that happens. If you read again what you’ve said in reply to me, you‘ll see you’ve stated in absolute terms what is, in fact, your opinion. “It was not ready for release” is your opinion. You’re quite entitled to that opinion, but if you state it as definitively as that, you shouldn’t be surprised if people express strong disagreement (as, in their opinion, it isn’t true). You might therefore find it more constructive to say, “I don’t think it was ready for release“, or “it doesn‘t seem ready for release”. The same is true for “worst home page”. Again, that’s your opinion. It’s not unreasonable, and you‘re obviously entitled to hold and express that view. But, it’s stated as though it’s an incontrovertible fact, even though it’s simply an opinion. Perhaps if you‘re able to acknowledge when you’re expressing an opinion more clearly in the future, your posts (and criticisms) may be better received.

Mark I appreciate you are commenting for the reasons because you have always tried to do you best to treat people with respect even when you disagree.  That said I have no idea what you are saying, I read above and simply see an expression of my experience, frustration and disappoint with Logos 8 and how decisions made by FL come across to me based on years of this sort of thing by FL. I really don't know how I can say it any other way.  I am a simple man, giving simple honest feedback. I am not sure how I could be any less definitive of my experience and remain truthful and honest.  It is my experience of the product and the impact FL's decisions regarding that product have had upon me as a customer. 

I have had too many people over the years try and silence me for saying anything negative about FL and I have experienced and seen to many controlling pastors in churches destroy peoples lives, I have been bullied all of my life but when I don't expect to come to forum like this and have people tell me I can't express an opinion about a product I have paid for from this company, especially when those people are no more than customers themselves. 

There is much more I could say about my life experience that contribute to me being at a point in my life where I  express in simple terms with honesty what I feel, but this is not the time or place and people on these forums have shown by the way the relate to me they are not the people I can trust with those things I have been through.  They are part of the problem and the reason why you see what I say as being to definitive and why I can't see how I can be any less definitive. And I will not allow them to bully me through both comments on these forums and in private messages off these forums. Yesterday I went and said my goodbyes to someone close to me whom cancer is going to take very soon. People on these forums who get so upset about another customer giving definitive feedback, as you describe it Mark, about a product they both purchased have no idea of what is really important in life - a little hint to them - it's not me being honest in my opinion of a product that we both happened to purchase.

And do you know why I am express my experience honestly, forthrightly, definitively, frankly, truly or whatever other adjective people wish to attach to me or judge me with - because I believe in this company, I believe in the people behind it, I believe it will server me through my lifetime and beyond that serve man others - but it has lost it's way it's become a big business detached from it's customers and that shows through its poor level of communication with it's customers.  As one simple example is I have not been receiving any emails from this company other than those related to transactions for purchases,  for over 12 months. I am signed up to all the mailing lists except proclaim which have no relevance to me, faithlife.com, logos.com etc are on my email safe senders list / white list or whatever your email program calls it. Every time I deal with someone form this company about it they either don't' come back to me or I have go through the same set of standard questions, they shrug their shoulders pass it onto customer service and I never hear another word on the issue.  This is the sort of response you get on a problem from a company that has become detached from it's customers and not he sort of company FL use to be under previous names.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 4:58 AM

doc:
There is much more I could say about my life experience that contribute to me being at a point in my life where I  express in simple terms with honesty what I feel

doc:
I have been bullied all of my life

doc:
Yesterday I went and said my goodbyes to someone close to me whom cancer is going to take very soon.

doc, thank you for sharing a bit of your life story. You have not said much but what you have said is significant. I'm so sorry to hear about how you have been bullied as it sounds like there is much pain behind that statement.

I have always said that "understanding someone's story provides a platform to extend grace". Unfortunately the forums don't really provide a good platform to understand someone's story. That's why I think it is a better on-line strategy to assume the best of the person who is writing knowing that I really have no idea of what has happened in their life up to that point, and especially what just happened.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 8:27 AM

doc:
Mark I appreciate you are commenting for the reasons because you have always tried to do you best to treat people with respect even when you disagree.

Thank you.

doc:
That said I have no idea what you are saying

Sorry if I wasn't clear :-). I'll try and put it another way.

Like many pastors, I'm sometimes involved in helping couples or others settle disputes. When that happens, the people involved often see things very differently. So in a dispute, it's very useful for the people involved to acknowledge that many of the frustrations they express are from their own perspective. As a pastor, I usually encourage people to acknowledge and verbalise that what they say is from their own perspective. So if someone says, "My husband treated me like dirt!", I might encourage them to say instead, "My husband did X, and it made me feel like dirt." The same point is being made, but acknowledging it's from their perspective takes some of the heat out of the discussion, and gives something objective to discuss with the husband: "did you do X?", "can you see how X might make someone feel like dirt?".

That can happen on the forums too. Person A might like the home page because it's less cluttered than before. Person B might think the home page isn't as good as in L7, but it's still quite usable. And Person C might think the home page is terrible.

Here's the thing: none of those people are wrong, from their own perspective.

If someone doesn't acknowledge their perspective, it's very easy to get into a circular "Yes it is"  /  "No it's not!" argument from which there's no escape. Something like this:

  • The homepage is the worst ever!
  • No it's not!
  • Yes it is!
  • No it's not!
  • You're not listening to me!
  • I am listening. But you're wrong. The home page is great!
  • No it's not! It doesn't do X!
  • But it does A, B and C instead! Who cares about X?

On the other hand, if someone acknowledges that their criticism is from their own perspective, it encourages the other person to see things from that perspective.

  • The home page can no longer do X, which means that to me, it's the worst ever homepage
  • That's a shame for you. I don't really use X, so I never realised that could be an issue before.
  • Yeah, it's a real problem. I hope they fix it soon.
  • Yeah, I agree. Come on Faithlife! While you're fixing my different problem, get this fixed too!

Now, obviously, it's not guaranteed to play out exactly like that! I've idealised the conversation. But hopefully, you can see the point. Acknowledging a criticism is from your own perspective usually leads to a much more constructive dialog because people are listening to your perspective, rather than trying to convert you to their perspective.

What you want is for Faithlife (and possibly other users) to see the problem from your perspective. If they do, hopefully they'll realise how important the issue is. And the best way you can help them to do that, is to acknowledge this is a personal perspective.

This might be done subtly: changing from "Logos 8 isn't ready for release" to "Logos 8 doesn't seem ready for release". Or it might be done more explicitly. "The home page can no longer for X, which I've relied on. I know that feature's coming, but it's absence makes it seem like Logos 8 isn't ready for release."

Either way, I think you'll get more people on side if you acknowledge that your criticisms made not apply to everyone and represent your personal perspective. And getting people on side is what matters here, I think.

PS: In case it's not clear, I'm not trying to censor you or tell you that you can't express an opinion. I'm simply saying that it's not always clear to other people — or at least to me — that what you're saying is your opinion (i.e. something from your perspective), and that can get people's backs up if they disagree with you. I don't want you to be less honest, less forthright or less frank. But I do want you to feel less bullied and less silenced when people respond to what you say, and I believe the suggestions I've made could be a real help to you in that.

If that is still not clear, or you're unhappy, I'm happy to follow up off-forum if you'd prefer: https://www.markbarnes.net/contact/ 

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 11:06 AM

This Is The Oldest Customer Complaint In History

4000 year old, "from the time of Adam". Are we any different now?

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/this-is-the-oldest-customer-complaint-in-history-and-its-great/ 

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 11:18 AM

Mike Wilson:

That is a classic!

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 12:14 PM

Mark you seem to be saying be wishy washy. the truth from my perspective is this is the worst home page FL has ever released. From my perspective I am certain of that experienc, it’s not that it seems like it might be the worst. From my experience it is the worst and the product was not ready for release. And I am not alone in saying that. So why as a paying customer should I not be honest of my experience and instead make statement that appear like I am uncertain of my experience which would then put people on these forums, who think it’s their job to quash anything anyone says they don’t like, in an even stronger position over me because I am comment with uncertainty. As I said previously as a paying customer I should be able to provide honest, open, truthful feedback on these forums without having other customers tell me I don’t have a right to do so or without being wishy washy about it and thus putting my feedback in a position where it appears I am asking for it to be validated first which is exactly what I am not seeking from other customer.

Ths is not a marriage relationship so your analogy doesn’t really make any sense in this situation though it was well intentioned. I don’t see others being wishy washy when they act outside of the forum guiibes and try to tear me down and they and others continue to make sniper remarks in posts they make. Start with telling them to pull their head in since they indicate they have it all so together. But I will continue to be open and honest in feedback of my experience to FL because I owe it to them to do so and I will not low myself to be pushed around on this forum. I’ve had enough of it in my personal life I’m not allowing to be done to me on a customer forum by other customers.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 2:46 PM

doc:
I should be able to provide honest, open, truthful feedback on these forums without having other customers tell me I don’t have a right to do so or without being wishy washy

We are not only from different sides of the earth, but also of different generations. I was taught that in giving feedback, I should consider first it's usefulness. If I can't word it in a constructive manner, don't say it at all. Second, I should consider whether it is a genuine flaw or merely something that goes against my preferences as the two require very different modes of expression. Third, be polite and considerate to all who might see the feedback. Fourth, it I must express my frustration, do so with a bit of humor ... as the frustration is on me not the company; only I can control the frustration.

From your post, you were obviously taught a different set of standards. The question of when selecting from different sets of standards is always: (a) which is most compatible with a truly Christian life (b) which is most effective (c) which is more apt to lead to a care-free life (d) which reflects best how you wish to be seen by others?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 6:12 PM

doc:
... the truth from my perspective is this is the worst home page FL has ever released.

Please elaborate on your perspective. Please help us understand what makes the new Home Page the worst ever for you. What is missing/changed that adversely affected your Home Page usage ?

Simply missing from honest feedback is what annoys/hurts about new Home Page, which prevents others from commiserating/sharing desire for improvement. From a FL perspective, if initial new Home Page is the worst ever, then any improvement should be better. Also, FL has no clue how to improve "worst ever" perspective (practically know a paying customer is hurting, but no idea how to really help so improvements that benefit others provide no value for a hurting customer).

Disclosure: due to many layout and home page crashes in previous versions, personally open Logos/Verbum to a blank layout, which is useful for troubleshooting crash cause(s). For several friendly forum discussions, have opened Home Page plus replicated some crashes. For me, if Home Page was removed, would not miss it (since previous/current Home Page do not help my application usage). Thankful for 8.1 including Explore customization so can improve Home Page appearing quicker by turning off many online feeds.

Personally still dreaming of color theme options for Faithlife user interface so created UserVoice suggestion => Add Themes to personalize colors/colours and improve readability (has 43 votes) while UserVoice => Night Mode for PC/Mac has 292 votes. Theme/Night Mode would include color options for Home Page plus the rest of the application user interface. Cool color choices by young people can be difficult for older people to use (since older eyes have more color/depth/focus perception issues).

OT: this thread has helped me while preparing for a "Celebrate Recovery" weekly meeting. Thankful for two resources in my library:

Your First Step to Celebrate Recovery: How God Can Heal Your Life

Soul Rape: Recovering Personhood after Abuse

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 9954
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2018 7:48 PM

Thank you Smiling, for the Ewart book recommendation.

Not to hurt Logos, but if anyone is money-constrained, Another Co is badly lower.


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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 17 2018 12:46 AM

doc:
Mark you seem to be saying be wishy washy.

Not at all. I'm suggesting that feedback is more powerful when it's constructive and self-aware. That's the opposite of wishy-washy.

doc:
So why as a paying customer should I not be honest of my experience and instead make statement that appear like I am uncertain of my experience which would then put people on these forums, who think it’s their job to quash anything anyone says they don’t like, in an even stronger position over me because I am comment with uncertainty.

I haven't suggested you appear you are uncertain of your experience. I've suggested the opposite — being really clear about your own experience while acknowledging the possibility that not everyone will see it the same way.

At the end of the day, it's entirely your call. So long as you act within the forum guidelines (which IMO you are), you're obviously free to keep on posting as you do. But equally, other customers are free to disagree with you, and they're free to say so. And Faithlife are free to weigh up everyone's concerns and act in a way they believe makes the biggest difference to the most people. I think that being constructive and building consensus is the best way to effect change. You're free to disagree and act accordingly. But personally, I think you'll be less effective in bringing about the change you want if you do.

doc:
I don’t see others being wishy washy when they act outside of the forum guiibes and try to tear me down and they and others continue to make sniper remarks in posts they make.

I don't recall seeing posts like that — although of course I don't read every post. If you feel, for the sake of fairness, I should respond to a particular post now or in the future, you have my contact details above. But I can only offer advice, of course (as I'm doing here). I have no authority over anyone else.

Posts 11
Thomas Winter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 2 2019 12:52 PM

Philana, 

Could you please pin this to to the top of the Logos 8 Forums? SR-1 & SR-2 are there, but I had to search for this one.

Thank you!

Happy 9th day of Christmas!

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