Why don't Verbum & Logos Fundamentals have the same Datasets & Features?

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This post has 19 Replies | 1 Follower

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Dec 19 2018 1:33 PM

Verbum fundamentals doesn't have all of the datasets and features as Logos fundamentals, but they're both priced at $99. So people who get Verbum Fundamentals, either who buy it or get it as a gift, are getting shorted.

Why are the features in the Fundamentals packages so different? Logos has Biblical Places, Events, Things; it has Fuzzy Bible search, Multiview resources, Biblical Event Navigator, Biblical Referents Dataset, Names of God Interactive, Speaking to God Interactive, and a few more things. Verbum Fundamentals doesn't have any of these.

Why doesn't Verbum Fundamentals have the same features and capabilities as Logos Fundamentals? Once again Logos is short-changing Verbum customers. Why can there be equality between the two platforms?

Posts 95
LogosEmployee

Thanks for the feedback.  Verbum and Logos are different products with (sometimes very) different audiences.  For example, Logos Fundamentals does not contain the Catholic Daily Readings, Catholic Topic Index, or any of the other Catholic-specific resources.  I constructed both the libraries and the features to align with the $99 price point of Logos Fundamentals primarily--and it does that.

That said, I'll review the features in Verbum 7 Fundamentals and see if it makes sense to add the ones you suggest.

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 2:09 PM

I don't expect them to have the same resources but if they're both called "Fundamentals" they should have the same datasets and features. In other words, there should be equality in functionality in terms of searching, interactives, and other basic features that are shared across the two platforms.

It looks like Verbum Fundamentals is just Verbum Basic with a few more books. Where as Logos Fundamentals is an actual base package that sits somewhere between Logos Basic and Logos Starter.

If you do add features to Verbum Fundamentals, will they automatically download for people that have already purchased Verbum Fundamentals or redeemed there free Verbum Fundamentals code?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 2:46 PM

Kiyah:
but if they're both called "Fundamentals" they should have the same datasets and features. In other words, there should be equality in functionality in terms of searching, interactives, and other basic features that are shared across the two platforms.

I understand your reasoning but I also understand the desire of FL to keep them at the same price point.  An interesting quandary.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 3:07 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kiyah:
but if they're both called "Fundamentals" they should have the same datasets and features. In other words, there should be equality in functionality in terms of searching, interactives, and other basic features that are shared across the two platforms.

I understand your reasoning but I also understand the desire of FL to keep them at the same price point.  An interesting quandary.

The price point is not the problem, but the fact that what's included at that price point is not comparable to what is included in that price point for Logos fundamentals.. The packages are both branded "Fundamentals," just like there are packages branded "Basic" or "Starter" or "Bronze" and so forth. Those packages typically have the same basic functionality across theological traditions including Verbum. So for example you wouldn't have the Biblical Referents Dataset in the Standard Starter feature set, but then only put the Biblical Referents Dataset in the Verbum Full feature set and leave it out of Starter and Bronze. So the levels of base packages across theological traditional are comparable in terms of functionality but with different books.

I'm seeing entire datasets missing from Verbum fundamentals (listed above) that are in Logos fundamentals. There doesn't appear to be much difference in datasets between Verbum Basic and Verbum fundamentals, although there's a big difference between Logos Basic and Logos fundamentals. But both are priced at $99 as if they have comparable levels of functionality, but they don't. Does that make sense?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 3:10 PM

Kiyah, I believe you misunderstood me. The price point is the problem. If Logos spends 50 on resources and 40 on datasets to make 90 (for example not real data) then if Verbum spends 60 on resources it only has 30 for datasets to keep the same price point.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 3:29 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kiyah, I believe you misunderstood me. The price point is the problem. If Logos spends 50 on resources and 40 on datasets to make 90 (for example not real data) then if Verbum spends 60 on resources it only has 30 for datasets to keep the same price point.

I understood that. I just think Verbum should do 50 on resources and 40 on datasets just like Logos rather than having a different mix.The reason is there's a big differences in using Verbum with the biblical places/things/events/referents datasets (for example), and using Verbum without them. So Logos and Verbum fundamentals users are getting a drastically different user experience in terms of functionality. The datasets are what drive more in-depth study of the biblical text. Fundamentals was supposed to be a scaled down version of the software that is highly functional in enabling bible study without being overwhelming (that is how both Verbum and Logos fundamentals are advertised if you look at their product pages). However, Verbum fundamentals doesn't have the more useful bible study tools that are included in Logos fundamentals that made it so attractive for everyone. It is pretty much Verbum Basic with more books and some reverse interlinears. The search functionality is drastically weakened compared to Logos Fundamentals. They're both branded similarly but they are very different products.

This is a quote from both of their product pages (as you can see they are clearly positioned to be comparable packages):

Verbum Fundamentals:

"For those who want to begin digging into Scripture, the Catechism, and Church Documents for themselves, Verbum 7 Fundamentals is the smart choice.

An essentials-only package, Fundamentals helps you find what you need fast without getting overwhelmed. It offers the breadth of what a good study library should have but leaves the depth to other base packages, so that it remains more accessible and affordable."

Logos Fundamentals:

"For those who want to begin digging into Scripture for themselves, Logos 7 Fundamentals is the smart choice.

An essentials-only package, Fundamentals helps you find biblical insights fast without getting overwhelmed. It offers the breadth of what a good Bible study library should have but leaves the depth to other base packages, so that it remains more accessible and affordable."

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 3:44 PM

To put it more simply, it's like they've advertised a Logos Motorcycle and a Verbum Motorcycle, but when you get the Verbum Motorcycle you discover it's not actually a motorcycle but a moped.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 4:19 PM

My only concern is that you understand the why ... I stay out of business decisions other than prioritization of software modifications. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 5:37 PM

Another relevant factor here is that some of the features in Logos Fundamentals may be of less interest to Verbum customers, in general, than Logos ones.

Posts 5196
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2018 9:42 PM

Each fundamentals has serious deficits but that said I do understand that choices had to be made and that they did the best they could.  The datasets are somewhat more flexible in what FL can offer because I do not believe royalties are due to any publisher but they still are valuable resources that people at FL worked hard to develope. Verbum made a most curious choice with its modern commentary. By choosing a volume from 1953 it is utilizing language fairly foreign to modern believers. The highly latinized names of the Douai tradition could be a bit confusing. But I assume the inclusion publishing cost, if any, for FL of this resource is far less than say the Collegville commentary which would seem to be the most natural fit in my mind. But there are always choices and it is very hard to please everyone.  

-Dan

PS: Lack of NSRV and related interlin. Is the reason I could never recommend Logos fund. But while this is probably the most key translation for mainline Protestant churches it is not included because choices had to be made. Not many will find either set ideal but it doesn’t mean that they are not good starting points and most welcome for those who want to be able to be able to get into FL Bible software at a more affordable price point. 

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 4:32 PM

Dan Francis:

Each fundamentals has serious deficits but that said I do understand that choices had to be made and that they did the best they could.  The datasets are somewhat more flexible in what FL can offer because I do not believe royalties are due to any publisher but they still are valuable resources that people at FL worked hard to develope. Verbum made a most curious choice with its modern commentary. By choosing a volume from 1953 it is utilizing language fairly foreign to modern believers. The highly latinized names of the Douai tradition could be a bit confusing. But I assume the inclusion publishing cost, if any, for FL of this resource is far less than say the Collegville commentary which would seem to be the most natural fit in my mind. But there are always choices and it is very hard to please everyone.  

-Dan

PS: Lack of NSRV and related interlin. Is the reason I could never recommend Logos fund. But while this is probably the most key translation for mainline Protestant churches it is not included because choices had to be made. Not many will find either set ideal but it doesn’t mean that they are not good starting points and most welcome for those who want to be able to be able to get into FL Bible software at a more affordable price point. 

I just think there should be consistency in functionality among the base package levels across traditions. In other words, all the Starter, Bronze, and Silver+ packages have basically the same features and functionality across theological traditions. Verbum has specific customization for Catholics but the program itself has the same features "under the hood" as Logos (except for Fundamentals). The same should be true of Fundamentals.

For example, I can do a search for all the times Jesus and Peter appear in the same text in Logos Fundamentals but not in Verbum Fundamentals because it doesn't have the Biblical Referents dataset. Biblical Places, Things, Events, and Referents (which makes the other "Biblical xxx" stuff searchable) is "fundamental" search functionality that both packages should have. And why leave out the Biblical Event Navigator and Multiview Resources from Verbum but include them in Logos. Do Catholics not care about biblical events? Do they not want to see two or more resources in one panel?

It's just strange to me to leave this "fundamental" functionality out for Verbum. And again, it breaks with the pattern of having the same functionality within a base package level across theological traditions.

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 4:43 PM

Wow. "While she was yet speaking..." It looks like they just fixed the disparity. Both the packages have the same datasets, features, and interactives now.

Thank you Faithlife!

Posts 95
LogosEmployee

Kiyah et al.,

After reviewing the Verbum 7 Fundamentals features relative to what is included in Logos 7 Fundamentals and some internal discussion among the Product Managers, I've added many of the suggested features.  We want Verbum Fundamentals users to have a great experience with the software and those features that I didn't include initially will help Verbum users to do just that.

Thanks again for the feedback and the discussion around this!

Advent and Christmas blessings!

Craig

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 4:56 PM

Thanks so much for being willing to make this change, Craig!

Have a blessed Holiday!

Posts 95
LogosEmployee

Kiyah:

Both the packages have the same datasets, features, and interactives now.

Thank you Faithlife!

You're welcome, Kiyah. 

You'll actually find that Verbum has more features (shhhh, don't tell).  The monetary value of both the libraries and feature sets was nearly identical, just different (and deliberately so).  In the keeping with the ironclad rule of "never remove a resource once published," I just left the "extra" resources in the package.  Verbum 7 Fundamentals will be superseded by Verbum 8 Fundamentals in the not-so-distant future anyhow.

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 541
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 5:11 PM

Smile I noticed but wasn't going to say anything. Your secret is safe with me. lol You guys did great work putting the fundamentals packages together.

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 5:15 PM

Total value if sold separately: $5,447.21

Wow! What a deal for only $99.99! Big Smile

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 5:32 PM

Yes I noticed that too. Let’s add up all the partial sets as if fully in Fundamentals. LOL. 

-dan

Posts 9681
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 21 2018 5:43 PM

Dan Francis:

Yes I noticed that too. Let’s add up all the partial sets as if fully in Fundamentals. LOL. 

-dan

Well, I'm glad Kiyah, and then MJ raised the issue. And a motivated product manager was really nice.

Today, I relented a tiny bit to re-look Orthodox Diamond. Maybe I could buy, and not download.

But I couldn't tell what my discount really was ... vs dynamic vs partial-collections. So, I gave up after a while. Can't tell.

Plus, their front packages comparison page played games, by not showing me my price ... gotta click on every single one. No thanks. 


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