Why was Logos 8 Released?

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This post has 23 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 35
mjones1970 | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 18 2019 1:59 PM

why in the world was Logos 8 released with so many bugs and tools like notes that flat out do not work.  8 is a HUGE step backwards with notes; I Was so excited when it was released with some of the notes features but can’t use it until they update it to 8.0.  I say 8.0 because what’s broken should not be so with a major release like this and I get it that all software has bugs upon release but this is a beta release at best being sold as mainstream software for a premium price.  Could you imagine the backlash if Adobe or similar company sold software in this condition.

my 2 cents, take it for what it‘s Worth...grrrr.

Posts 2016
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 2:30 PM

You are so right that the notes can still be improved a great deal and I understand Logos is doing so. On the other hand,  Logos 8 is so much faster and better in many ways that it was well worth releasing.  I find it much more refined than a Beta. 

The Notes, for all their major improvements, need some work as you said. If the problems are bothersome enough you can certainly use the V7 note system in V8 or even stick with V7 altogether and don't change anything for a while longer.

Also, I believe that the software and its upgrades remain free.  All you actually pay for is resources and features.    

 

Posts 35
mjones1970 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 2:40 PM

Thanks for the reply.  I immediately upgraded to 8 and upgraded to silver from bronze so I’m invested.  I’m mostly referring to notes as being beta.  I had a hard time really dedicating myself to notes 7 because of its limitations and glitches it had even at its two year old mark.  It was very limited on formatting and the glitch of having to carefully click when clicking on a notes contexts near the bottom because it had a tendency to jump back to the top of the page which drove me nuts.  There were other organizational limitations that I had seen that were addressed in v8 that I was excited about except they don’t work and then things that did work are either gone or now don’t work.  I understand they res working on the fixes but maybe they should have delayed for another six months And got it better out the door.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 3:11 PM

mjones1970:
why in the world was Logos 8 released with so many bugs and tools like notes that flat out do not work.

The use of the new notes is optional in Logos 8 - and a list of features yet to be added has been provided. Most of the new features have been in production for Logos Now users for 20-6 months and are reasonably bug free. I agree that the Home Page should have been delayed when the developers realized they were running out of time ... but having been a developer I don't see this as unusual. The Workflow editor feature is one that was reasonable to have a phased roll out for. Where else have major bugs occurred? Having been through 6 roll outs, I thought this one went fairly well although I share the frustration of those effected by the Home Page roll out for which there is no temporary alternative.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2016
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 3:58 PM

mjones1970:

There were other organizational limitations that I had seen that were addressed in v8 that I was excited about except they don’t work and then things that did work are either gone or now don’t work.  I understand they res working on the fixes but maybe they should have delayed for another six months And got it better out the door.

I too wish that the notes were better out the door.  And the Home Page too.  I strongly wish that! 

Near the bottom of the page at this link you can find a list of improvements and upcoming features for notes that we can expect.  

Posts 5232
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 8:35 PM

I understand that FL had a target release date and likely wanted to be released well before the Black Friday to catch people at the most opportune time. But it really did feel released a good month prematurely.  Now I understand that all bugs are never likely to be worked out but this was the first upgrade that made me seriously want to downgrade. At 8.1 we have what at minimal it feels like to me should have been the initial release. For any truly new user I can see the program as it was in 8.0 might have been enough to have them thinking twice of their investmeant of the software. FL my well has shot themselves in the foot with this release when 9 comes out I well may skip upgrading altogether knowing when the free engine is available it should be at least stable And working as intended. I may well be in the minority here but obviously I am not alone in my disappointment to the quality of 8‘s release version.

-dan

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 18 2019 10:27 PM

Dan Francis:
But it really did feel released a good month prematurely.


I agree that an additional month for development would have made a large difference in its reception.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 593
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 6:44 PM

I think they needed at least 3 or even 4 more months just to get things functional, not including enhancements and improvements that people suggest as they use the new version. That's what usually happens, the latest version is released and overall it works great with albeit a few bugs. Then they use the updates to fix bugs, add enhancements based on user feedback, and add minor new features.

But now with Logos 8 they're spending all of their time just getting the product functionality back that people are used to having since so much functionality was lost. They should have just bitten the bullet and delayed the release. It looks like they bit off more than they could chew with trying to overhaul too many things at once (User Interface, Home Page, Notes) and still adding all new features like Canvas and Workflows. Now they're really going to struggle getting people to upgrade to Logos 9 and subsequent releases because of how poorly the Logos 8 release was handled. I personally will never upgrade right away again.

Posts 18577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 7:01 PM

Kiyah:
But now with Logos 8 they're spending all of their time just getting the product functionality back that people are used to having since so much functionality was lost.

I've been with Logos since the beginning, even before 1.0 (beta tested it for them when Bob was still working at Microsoft and doing this on the side in his spare time), and this has always been their modus operandi. I disagree with it as a method, and have pushed back at him about it over the years. But it's pretty deeply ingrained in their DNA, and I don't see it changing any time soon.

They tend to start over from scratch and rewrite everything every few versions. They did it whenever they switched over to object-oriented programming and C++ sometime in the Logos 2 or 3 (Libronix) timeframe, they did it again with a massively new user-interface with Logos 4 (and a lot of functionality was lost that time which took them years to put back in; some people still miss a few things that were never put back in).

It's an odd way to do business if you ask me. But it's how they like to operate. Clean/fresh start every so often. That carries with it major risks of new bugs that were never there before, and missing functionality. But there are other risks of sticking with legacy code forever.

Posts 593
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 7:16 PM

Rosie Perera:
I've been with Logos since the beginning, even before 1.0 (beta tested it for them when Bob was still working at Microsoft and doing this on the side in his spare time), and this has always been their modus operandi. I disagree with it as a method, and have pushed back at him about it over the years. But it's pretty deeply ingrained in their DNA, and I don't see it changing any time soon.

Good perspective. I started with Logos 6 so I wasn't there for the Logos 4 overhaul. I knew people who had Logos 5, but I didn't even know Logos existed before that point. So was it really as bad for Logos 4 as people are experiencing now for Logos 8?

It's always risky changing the user interface but eventually people get used to it. But it seems like the changes to the notes tool is massively impacting how people work who've been using Logos for years and have a lot invested in notes. Thankfully I don't use notes as extensively as others, so for me it hasn't been so painful.

Posts 1050
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 7:31 PM

Kiyah:

I think they needed at least 3 or even 4 more months just to get things functional, not including enhancements and improvements that people suggest as they use the new version. That's what usually happens, the latest version is released and overall it works great with albeit a few bugs. Then they use the updates to fix bugs, add enhancements based on user feedback, and add minor new features.

But now with Logos 8 they're spending all of their time just getting the product functionality back that people are used to having since so much functionality was lost. They should have just bitten the bullet and delayed the release. It looks like they bit off more than they could chew with trying to overhaul too many things at once (User Interface, Home Page, Notes) and still adding all new features like Canvas and Workflows. Now they're really going to struggle getting people to upgrade to Logos 9 and subsequent releases because of how poorly the Logos 8 release was handled. I personally will never upgrade right away again.

I think there were some good things about this release. I like the base library I got, the program has gotten snappier and a fresh new look, and I didn't encounter any problems with logos.com crashing at that time.

But while it looks good, the new home page is basically useless; it has very little functionality, and once you turn off FL's advertising feeds there's a bug that prevents changing it back again. For the first time ever, I've set Logos to directly open a layout at startup rather than the home page.

While I don't use Logos Notes much, I feel for those who are having problems with them. But at least FL seems to be working on it, which is more than they're doing for the Theology Guide, which doesn't come anywhere close to performing its primary function.

At this point, I look at new version release primarily as an opportunity to pick up books cheap. That way, the last few have been good for me. Losing functionality is definitely a step backwards, and going forward I'm just going to ignore the hype around new features that probably won't actual work until the next release.

 Logos Now Subscriber -- 22/2/2018

Posts 593
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 7:46 PM

Sean:
But while it looks good, the new home page is basically useless; it has very little functionality, and once you turn off FL's advertising feeds there's a bug that prevents changing it back again. For the first time ever, I've set Logos to directly open a layout at startup rather than the home page.

Yes the home page is useless. They focused on how it looks but not what it can do, and it doesn't even look that good on top of that. I liked the how the old home page invited you into the software, invited you into your library, sparked ideas for what you might want to study. Now I pretty much bypass the home page when I open the software. Hopefully they'll bring back the "From Your Library," "Excerpts," and "Media" tiles in the explore section. They were not only useful but they made the home page look colorful, interesting, and inviting. And I miss being able to see all of my lectionary readings in one glance.

Posts 18577
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 7:51 PM

Sean:
For the first time ever, I've set Logos to directly open a layout at startup rather than the home page.

I've always done this (since L4 when they introduced that home page). I never found it useful. I didn't even need the Go box, because I could do what it offered me using my own layouts. And the rest of it was just glorified advertising or randomness from my library. Bleh.

Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 3:55 PM

Logos 4 release is also like this. It can feel a regression to some (because a lack of certain existing feature due to major revision) but a huge step forward to others (simply because it is a major revision.)

I think Logos 8 is a bit like Logos 4 in this aspect, although not as big of a jump (from Libronix to Logos 4). When they release Logos 8 they also claim that its design hasn't changed between Logos 4 to 7 and Logos 8 is a major change in UX. IMO it hasn't changed that much in terms of actual experience but it probably is in terms of internals which is what the staffs can feel.

You may think it like iOS 7 for Logos. Many people like it but some thought it's a disaster (because it crashed more often, slower, etc.)

In the computing world, major release should not be taken lightly in terms of upgrading, although many has. Major release should have some breaking changes. This is so called semantic versioning, where something like 10.14.1 means major.minor.critical. Major upgrade is backward incompatible, minor upgrade is backward compatible while new features added. Critical upgrade is bug fixes only, i.e. no new functionality but fixing old functionality oddness.

i.e. while their marketing would want you to upgrade immediately, be it Windows 10 XXX upgrade (like Fall, Creator, April, October, etc.), macOS 10.x upgrade, Logos x upgrade, etc. Whenever there's a major upgrade, you should test run it to make sure it works for you before a full migration.

I did that to all my major OS upgrade, but I'm more sloppy to any major software upgrade. I have sometimes bitten some bullets because of this. (e.g. I recall I did a major upgrade of Lightroom, which has its catalog upgraded, and made some changes, and later found out there's some performance regression and I can't go back.)

In short, while a customer could complain how a certain major upgrade is a regression and want the company alone taking all the responsibility, we should know that we also need to take some of that responsibility when we blindly upgrade without testing. (That's why I hate using Windows because it almost forced you to upgrade without your consent.)

Posts 2972
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 3:58 PM

Kolen Cheung:
In short, while a customer could complain how a certain major upgrade is a regression and want the company alone taking all the responsibility, we should know that we also need to take some of that responsibility when we blindly upgrade without testing. (That's why I hate using Windows because it almost forced you to upgrade without your consent.)

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Posts 9915
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 4:06 PM

Kolen Cheung:

In short, while a customer could complain how a certain major upgrade is a regression and want the company alone taking all the responsibility, we should know that we also need to take some of that responsibility when we blindly upgrade without testing. (That's why I hate using Windows because it almost forced you to upgrade without your consent.)

Exactly. I'm lovin' my Logos7. No irresponsibility for me. Works fine. Sit back and wait for real Logos 8.

Smiling.


Posts 2972
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 4:08 PM

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Posts 878
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 4:30 PM

Along these lines, on the company's side they should facilitate running both versions simultaneously, and also downgrading.

Logos/Faithlife is doing great on this. e.g. in https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018336332 for switching back to old notes system, although it is not without caveats. Many other companies won't even try to provide tools like this. (If one use Apple product, one is almost impossible to downgrade (it is technically possible only when you want to downgrade very early, when they still sign their old OS, and even so one need to find a way to obtain the old version and download through iTunes, etc.) I learnt a lesson by upgrading my iPhone 6 Plus to iOS 11 making it practically unusable and left no other options but to upgrade to a new iPhone.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 5:36 PM

Rosie Perera:
I've always done this (since L4 when they introduced that home page). I never found it useful. I didn't even need the Go box, because I could do what it offered me using my own layouts. And the rest of it was just glorified advertising or randomness from my library. Bleh.

I've always seen the Home page as useful only for those who used calendar-based features that changed daily. My guess as to the priority of features that lead non-newbie's to use the Home page:

  1. Daily lectionary
  2. Calendar devotional
  3. Sanctoral cycle (saints)
  4. Reading plan
  5. Prayer list (would be higher if redesigned)
  6. Courses

You may notice that this is essentially saying I suspect the many people only used the left-hand panel (the former ribbon).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 23 2019 5:55 PM

I found the right-hand (content) side of the Home page more interesting.

In L8, my dashboard is still empty.

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