Preserved Formating when Pasting into Notes from MS Word

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Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jan 21 2019 9:15 PM

I have asked this before and have not been given a definite answer. In L5, L6 and L7 (I don't quite remember if L4 had this functionality) we were able to copy from an MS Word document and paste it into a Logos Note with the formatting being preserved. Formatting is no longer preserved. The issues with Logos Notes is the precise reason that I have not been saving documents in Logos as my primary location... you never know when they are going to change something drastically and destroy your whole workflow. I normally use PBs for using my documents on my desktop, but when I switch to my Android tablet/phone there is no way for my PBs to be accessed. To work around this issue I always copy and pasted into separate documents. Notebooks works for me, and I have a separate Notebook for each of the files that I need to have access to on my Mobiles. When I update a Word document I just copy and paste the whole thing back into the Logos note. I can no longer do this, and so all my documents have been out of date since I upgraded L8. I did not know this functionality would be lost. I cannot switch back and forth between the old and new notes systems, as that creates other issues (switching is for searching according to previous tagging systems, not for creating or updating notes). 

Functionally speaking, this means that I cannot teach or preach from my tablet with Logos using notes that I created on my computer with MS Word. 

I would like to be answered by a Faithlife employee as to if this is on their radar? And I would also like to know the general timeframe when we can expect this functionality to be restored?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 12:51 AM

Michael Farrar:
I would like to be answered by a Faithlife employee as to if this is on their radar? And I would also like to know the general timeframe when we can expect this functionality to be restored?

Greetings Michael – I am sorry that the notes system isn't working for you and thanks for making your concerns known. Whenever we get an improvement in functionality prompted by a real user it means that the programme improves for everyone.

However the Forums are not a good way to get in contact with Faithlife staff. Some browse the posts but mostly this is a self help tool.

If you want a definitive answer then by far the best way is to pick up the phone and ask customer service. I live in the UK and manage to make such calls quite inexpensively using Skype. On the odd occasion that the call has gone on for a few minutes customer service have offered to ring me back.

There may well be a way to help you deal with your problem and it might be time effective to give them a call.

Posts 109
William McFarland | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 22 2019 6:32 AM

Michael, there is a work around, Notes copied from OneNote retain their formatting. Notes copied from Word to OneNote retrain their formatting, so if you go from Word to OneNote to Logos you will retain your formatting. A little kludgey but it works.

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 24 2019 7:57 PM

William McFarland:

Michael, there is a work around, Notes copied from OneNote retain their formatting. Notes copied from Word to OneNote retrain their formatting, so if you go from Word to OneNote to Logos you will retain your formatting. A little kludgey but it works.

Thank you for the suggestion, but it doesn't seem to preserve the formatting that I am talking about. Copying from Onenote seems to preserve only bold, and nothing else. Loss of formatting includes indentation, bold, color, size, and various other things. These are all very useful to me in my sermon and teaching notes, and now they do not copy over anymore.

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 24 2019 8:07 PM

Mike Binks:
There may well be a way to help you deal with your problem and it might be time effective to give them a call.

Thank you for the suggestion. I may try and call them, but the time difference from here in the Philippines makes calling a little difficult to work out. I did email them in the meantime, and they gave me a very coy answer that basically seems to tell me that they changed things, and they don't care to go back to what it was before.

Here is the email:

"Hello Michael,

 

                Thank you for the email. Notes was never meant to be a replacement to one’s word processor, and I think you’ll find that copying and pasting from one word processor to another creates small variants in how the formatting is translated. The largest differences between the formatting in Word and the Notes tool is indentation. Assuming that is what you are referring to I would encourage you to suggest more true duplication of formatting between the source of the copied text and the Note over at UserVoice, and then encourage others to vote for your ideas in the forums here https://community.logos.com/forums/147.aspx. "

Sometimes I wonder whether these tech people even use Logos... I wouldn't call it a small variation, and I shouldn't have to make a suggestion over something that was previously standard. that tells me that they changed it, they don't care, and they are not going back unless they have significant outcry. That is just... lame.

Posts 2820
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 24 2019 8:45 PM

Michael Farrar:
That is just... lame.

Agreed.

Having a real, live human send someone to a BB like UserVoice is *not* customer service by any stretch of the imagination.

I feel your frustration.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 1:10 AM

Michael Farrar:
I did email them in the meantime, and they gave me a very coy answer that basically seems to tell me that they changed things, and they don't care to go back to what it was before.

I wrote elsewhere that there are two inherent problems with having a permanent solution to retaining formatting when pasting text from a word processor, or even a text editing program into notes.

Firstly Microsoft offerings are inconsistent over the range of their programs - as noted you get a different response from One Note to the one you get from the various flavours of .doc and .docx available.

Secondly Microsoft Office offerings are no longer the gold standard programs out there, the users of Pages, Open Office, Libra Office and a host of others would be queueing up to claim the same attention from the programmers.

Meeting your aspirations might well detract from other users by both favouring one brand and by using programmers time for a select (and I would hazard a small) group of users who want to import into notes from external sources.

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 2:03 AM

Mike Binks:
Meeting your aspirations might well detract from other users by both favouring one brand and by using programmers time for a select (and I would hazard a small) group of users who want to import into notes from external sources.

The problem with your logic is that they were already offering this. I just tried to switch back to L7 notes and I can still paste in with full formatting being preserved (though it is very jerry-rigged - as I have to remember not to edit anything that I want to remain correct in L8 Notes - Only creating new notes, not touching anything that is already there...).

In addition, .doc and .docx can be opened on pretty much any processor with minimal formatting issues (I have tested out quite a few of those other ones personally, and they do work with .doc, and many with .docx.

And something tells me that they already do favor .docx, as PBs only allow .docx.

Why did they remove the format preservation for L8? Why are they accepting the formatting for PBs from docx, but not for notes? How hard can it be (Admittedly, I am not a programmer) to go from accepting .docx for PBs to accepting it for their new and super improved Notes?

I was sold on the fact that they were improving the notes system, and while they may have improved things like searching for highlighting and notes by resources (which was long overdue) and other functional things; yet there are many things that are quite lacking, and this is one of them that has been rolled back to pre-L4 days. I wish there was some kind of disclaimer on their selling page showing all the things that they removed. That did not come out till after I have bought it.

Posts 109
William McFarland | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 9:41 AM

Michael Farrar:
Thank you for the suggestion, but it doesn't seem to preserve the formatting that I am talking about.

I"m not sure why, my formatting remained the same  (I did change the bullets to numbers / letters in OneNote). I did another test and it did lose the font size change and highlighting but kept the font color change.

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 4:37 PM

I am not sure how it is coming across for you and not for me. Are you going from Word to OneNote and then back to Word? Here is a video of what I am trying to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxtNyD3mdg0&feature=youtu.be  

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 4:54 PM

William McFarland:
I"m not sure why, my formatting remained the same  (I did change the bullets to numbers / letters in OneNote). I did another test and it did lose the font size change and highlighting but kept the font color change.

It seems to me that when creating a numbering in OneNote that the formatting is preserved in Logos. The same does not apply when going from Word itself. 

I do wonder why it had to be a complete redesign... especially when it was simply billed as an improved version. It is not an improved version, it is a different note system altogether. the way the editor worked in the old one was just fine... or at least I had not seen many complaints, and I did not have any myself (nothing of significant consequence, that is).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 5:11 PM

Michael Farrar:
I do wonder why it had to be a complete redesign

Because the old storage method limited the possibilities for adding the newer design interfaces that the users kept asking for.

Michael Farrar:
... or at least I had not seen many complaints,

You need to go further back in the forums, before we were given a solid "it ain't gonna happen" - many users simply kept their notes outside of Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 9:37 PM

MJ. Smith:
Because the old storage method limited the possibilities for adding the newer design interfaces that the users kept asking for.

I should have said it differently. what I am trying to get at is that they could have done all those background changes in the new system, and recreated a word processor in the new system that mimicked the word processor input of the old system. Does the content of a note affect the way that it is stored and retrieved?

MJ. Smith:
You need to go further back in the forums, before we were given a solid "it ain't gonna happen" - many users simply kept their notes outside of Logos.

thank you, I stand corrected :). this reality actually makes my case stronger. Many users, myself included, created and kept our notes outside of Logos because of the limited functionality of Logos Notes. Moreover, Logos admits that their Notes (including the most current one) is not a replacement for a stand alone word processor (see my note above for the contents of an email that was sent to me by Logos Tech). Are we now really suppose to think that we should be forced to eather abandon the use of our outside notes in Logos, or painstakingly redo them all (in the admittedly subpar Logos Notes word processor) just to access the functionality (Insanely good search functionality, I would add) of Logos' new Notes storage and search functions? They didn't force us to redo our external notes to bring them in under L7, why should we be forced to do that in L8 when the Notes word processor is still admittedly subpar? This seems like an oversight for them, and one they are ignoring. It is hard for me to believe that no one else copy and pasted notes into logos from external personal documents.

The reason I didn't use Logos Notes previously to create more detailed documents is because it is so subpar with regards to the word processor options, both the previous note system and the L8 note system were this way. I used eternal processors for my personal notes and imported the documents into PBs primarily because you couldn't create hyperlinks to other logos resources in the text of notes created in Logos; thankfully, this is something that can be done in L8 - one of many bright spots. So, I can create some note easier in Logos, but what of all my old notes? What of more complex notes? L7 accepted them with minimal changes. I like to create headings in MS Word because I can practically make my own resources through the PBs, something I couldn't do if I created them first in Notes. But if I continue to create them externally, then I will loose the functionality of the new notes, whereas if I create them in the new Notes, I lose the functionality of having them as a PB (Personal Notes as PBs are much better to preach and teach from since I can't accidently edit them when I am teaching - primarily using my computer in tablet mode).

I know they can't cater to the needs of ever user, but accepting the formatting of notes copied into notes does not seem like such a big deal, especially since they had it with the L7 system, and they already do that with their PB creator. I know, I am not a programmer, so if there is some deep programming issue that I couldn't even fathom than I stand ready to be corrected. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 10:20 PM

Michael Farrar:
and they already do that with their PB creator.

I would consider this a crimson herring Wink. The PB goes through a process that is built for publisher efiles of books - designed primarily to add the tagging necessary for the resource to work within Logos. Notes has much more in common with the Sermon editor as they both are designed to take user input and make it compatible with Logos tools.

I do use copy and paste a great deal - but very little of it is format dependent. My biggest personal gripe is tables. I have not experienced any great lost of data in notes. However, I lost a great deal of timeline data between L3 and L4. I learned my lesson and purchased a stand alone time line maker. Between L7 and L8, I lost the meager support FL provided for lectionaries ... and made sure FL knew I felt betrayed. Everyone has to find for themselves the right balance between adjusting their needs to fit into what FL provides AND supplementing FL with other tools that meet their needs more closely.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 12:36 AM

MJ. Smith:
I would consider this a crimson herring Wink.

Not a crimson herring :), just ignorance :).

MJ. Smith:
The PB goes through a process that is built for publisher efiles of books - designed primarily to add the tagging necessary for the resource to work within Logos.

At least I know that I don't have to worry about loosing my beloved PBs...

MJ. Smith:
My biggest personal gripe is tables

Tables would be nice, and I have been bothered in the past when I couldn't copy and paste those into a note. Though, at least we have PBs to bring tables in.

MJ. Smith:
However, I lost a great deal of timeline data between L3 and L4. I learned my lesson and purchased a stand alone time line maker. Between L7 and L8, I lost the meager support FL provided for lectionaries ... and made sure FL knew I felt betrayed. Everyone has to find for themselves the right balance between adjusting their needs to fit into what FL provides AND supplementing FL with other tools that meet their needs more closely.

I had Libronix (or whatever the name was back then), but at the time I had a different Bible program. L4 brought me in, and this has been the biggest change since then (though I have read some things alluding to the big change from L3 to L4), at least in my perspective. I bought L4, L6, L7 and now L8. in that time I have become really dependent upon the usability of the Notes and PBs that has been there for my specific needs since L4.5 (I think). I really wish they would allow PBs to be access from the Mobile software. maybe that is what I should be pushing for instead. Then I wouldn't need my notes to transfer. But it seems like that would never happen.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 12:58 AM

Michael Farrar:
But it seems like that would never happen.

We've seen things arrive that we were told would "never" happen so keep pushing for what you need ... including copy & paste preserving more of the formatting.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 555
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 4:38 AM

MJ. Smith:
You need to go further back in the forums, before we were given a solid "it ain't gonna happen" - many users simply kept their notes outside of Logos.

I've been waiting for more than 10 years for Logos Notes to be useable. I'm still waiting. I was optimistic when Logos kept proclaiming huge improvements for Notes in Logos 8. I've been using, and continue to use Evernote for my Notes. I'm not optimistic that Notes in Logos will ever become fully functional and useable.

John

Posts 109
William McFarland | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 8:04 AM

Michael Farrar:
I am not sure how it is coming across for you and not for me. Are you going from Word to OneNote and then back to Word?

I'm sorry I don't understand either. I normally change from bullets to numbers / letters in Word (the word file is an export from a mind mapping program) and then paste into OneNote, then copy the outline from OneNote to Logos Notes. But this is just a work around until Logos gets their copy / paste fixed.

Posts 45
Michael Farrar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 12:02 AM

Mike Binks:

Secondly Microsoft Office offerings are no longer the gold standard programs out there, the users of Pages, Open Office, Libra Office and a host of others would be queueing up to claim the same attention from the programmers.

Meeting your aspirations might well detract from other users by both favouring one brand and by using programmers time for a select (and I would hazard a small) group of users who want to import into notes from external sources.

since it is true that there are many different word processors, I decided to do a test and see how well the other programs worked with L7 and also with L8 in format retention. I wrote up a small document from scratch in 5 separate word processors: Google Docs, Open Office, WordPerfect X9, Microsoft Word and LibreOffice. Being on Windows, I have no way to access Pages (if someone would like to test that program that would be good). The formatting of nearly all (Google Docs formatting retained some formatting) word processors was lost upon copying and pasting into L8. No surprise there. L7, however, retained the majority of formatting for OpenOffice (current edition), WordPerfect X9, Microsoft Word (2016) and LibreOffice (current edition). All formatting was lost for Google Docs when copying into L7. 

In summary, L7 preserved the formatting for the major word processors (again, I could not test Pages), and L8 lost the majority of formatting for everything except Google Docs. 

Categories tested included:

  • Size
  • Bold
  • Automatic Numbered/Lettered lists
  • Color (only Green and Red were used for the tests)
  • Left text alignment
  • Center text alignment
  • Justified text alignment
  • Indentation outside of automatic lists

These are the results of the tests:

Google Docs:

L7:

  • L7 retains indentation outside of numbered lists
  • L7 loses everything else

L8: (Better format retention)

  • L8 retains numbered/lettered automatic lists
  • L8 retains bold
  • L8 retains justified text alignment
  • L8 retains center text alignment
  • L8 retains indentation outside of automatic numbered/lettered lists
  • L8 loses color
  • L8 loses size

Open Office:

L7: (Better format retention)

  • L7 retains size
  • L7 retains bold
  • L7 retains numbered lists (indentation in lists is a little off and lettering is changed to numbers)
  • L7 retains color
  • L7 retains center text alignment
  • L7 retains indentation outside of a list (with formatting difficulties)
  • L7 loses justified text alignment

L8:

  • L8 retains bold
  • L8 retains numbered/lettered lists with formatting difficulties
  • L8 retains certain indentations (loses others)
  • L8 loses size
  • L8 loses color
  • L8 loses center text alignment
  • L8 loses justified text alignment
  • L8 loses multiple indentation outside of a list

Word Perfect:

L7: (Better format retention)
  • L7 retains size
  • L7 retains bold
  • L7 retains numbered lists (indentation in lists is a little off and lettering is changed to numbers)
  • L7 retains color
  • L7 retains center text alignment
  • L7 retains some indentation (there is also indentation where not specified)
  • L7 loses justified text alignment

L8:

  • L8 retains numbered/lettered indentation (with formatting issues)
  • L8 retains indentation outside of lists (with small formatting differences)
  • L8 loses size
  • L8 loses bold
  • L8 loses color
  • L8 loses center text alignment
  • L8 loses justified text alignment

Microsoft Word:

L7: (Better format retention)

  • L7 retains size
  • L7 retains bold
  • L7 retains numbered lists (lettering is changed to numbers)
  • L7 retains color
  • L7 retains center text alignment
  • L7 retains regular indentation outside of automatic lists (with minor formatting issues)
  • L7 loses justified text alignment

 L8:

  • L8 retains bold
  • L8 retains proper lettering/numbering in automatic lists
  • L8 retains indentation outside of automatic lists (retains better than L7)
  • L8 retains center text alignment
  • L8 retains justified text alignment
  • L8 retains some color (green is retained – red is not)
  • L8 loses size
  • L8 loses indentation of automatic numbered/lettered lists

LibreOffice:

 L7: (Better format retention)

  • L7 retains size
  • L7 retains bold
  • L7 retains numbered lists (very well)
  • L7 retains color
  • L7 retains center text alignment
  • L7 loses regular indentation outside of automatic lists
  • L7 loses justified text alignment

L8:

  • L8 retains bold
  • L8 retains numbered lists (with some formatting difficulties)
  • L8 retains center text alignment
  • L8 retains justified text alignment
  • L8 loses size
  • L8 loses color
  • L8 loses regular indentation outside of automatic lists

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 12:26 AM

Pages pretty much only retains the bold.

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