the new Logos 8 Notes Tool - loss of Logos 7 Note file functionality

Page 2 of 3 (53 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 52 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 2:03 AM

hi Adam

thanks for your reply. 

It seems to me that once TITLES in the window's TABS is restored, it must be obvious to restore the complimentary functionality  of having those TITLES appear in the CONTEXT menu?

...for thew restoration of the functionality of Logos 7 notes, which I took for granted for years, but now consider amazing, in its absence... I'm not sure how many other Logos users are fully aware of the potential of using TITLE note files ( or the equivalent functionality in the new notes tool) which can be dragged over to the FAVOURITES Menu, organised as a User defined library though folders and sub folders.... and thereby organise many TITLED note files and simultaneously use them on screen as independant stand alone resources, which can be edited in real time ( unlike PBs) especially if the user like me has several additional computer monitors...

I had just purchased a computer to run four monitors especially for using Logos resources and NOTE files in this way ( before I only had two monitors, but four is great) 

best wishes

Michael 

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 2:06 AM

hi Graham

thanks for the reply. I've tried a couple of times and cannot get it to work, maybe partially a time zone thing, I'll keep on trying again

thanks

Michael

Posts 342
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 10:38 AM

Hello, Michael, 

I understand your request perfectly. Nothing has changed since my response a few days ago, but I will try to provide some clarity.

You would like: 

  1. The NOTEBOOK TITLE to be visible in the TAB of the Notes tool panel.
    Status: This work is already underway. 
  2. The TITLE of all open notebooks to appear in the CONTEXT menu as a list. e.g., Add a note to Notebook 1, Add a note to Notebook 2, etc.
    Status: Undecided.

Regarding the context menu, I understand why this seems obvious -- really, I do -- but it represents an important user experience (UX) design decision we have to make on behalf of our users. Notebooks are analogous to old note documents, but they are not the same. Notebooks are an important but optional way of organizing notes. In the past, note documents were commonly used to organize notes either by resource or by book of the Bible, both of which are served by the anchors and facets in the Notes tool; using notebooks in the same way is still possible, but is redundant, and ultimately more work for user. Notebooks are still useful for organizing by topic, occasion, and many others, but are still discussing how much prominence to give them in the UI. 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 11:34 AM

hi Adam

thanks for the reply. ( Not sure if this needs saying, but for a NOTEBOOK title to be visible in the context menu it would appear as the actual title,  "Title abc" "Title xyz" note a reference to a notebook by number...  Notes(1) or Notes(2) etc which would not be easily usuable with 20 note files open. 

I understand design deicsions are made on behalf of all Logos users, however I have referred to

1/ restoration of unexpected loss of functionality   ( on which I've invested a lot of time and other resrouces,) there are some other Logos users who use a lot of note documents

2/ The functionality of using notes documents as standalone resources does not seem to be widely recognised at Logos, but is enormous when used along with an extensive folder system int he favourites menu. I am not sure Logos or many other users are fully aware of this power and functionality, but OTHER LOGOS USERS  might benefit greatly if it was taught and highlighted.

I had a very similar conversation about using NOTE DOCUMENTS as independant resources with Dan at logos around 2011 before the restoration of the Split Screen in notes, which had been dropped after Libronix went to logos, on the basis of the way Logos considered how most people used notes,  I was fairly sure then using Note documents as standalone resources ( which can be edited quickly and instantly,  in real time, unlike Pbs) was then not widely recognised at Logos. I

It seems Logos might have created NOTES DOCUMENTS for one reason, without realising they could be legtimately developed to be used in incredibly powerful ways for power users in a variety of ways, I'm grateful Logos recognises it is in everyone's  interest to at least fully research the functionality and not to reduce functionality but at least somehow keep it there. 

I appreciate your description of how notes were organised in (Logos 7) NOTE DOCUMENTS, by resource or by book of the bible,  (which are served by the anchors and facets in the (Logos 8)  Notes tool).   

My point has been to use LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS as standalone resources does not depend upon notes being attached to bible or resources, but can involve user created content or simple copy and paste, or even quite sophisticated combinations with the Logos 7  NOTES DOCUMENTS often being quite  substantial resources organised and arranged in their own right, developed over years, and accessible quickly,. each one being far more than its composite collection of notes. Hence the value of being able to have 20 or 30 on screen at the same time, with titles in the tabs for on-screen organisation, and also to be able to instantly rapid fire new notes off to one organised TITLED COLLECTION of notes or another organised TITLED COLLECTION of notes from the context menu, while simulatensouly creating quite different organised TITLE COLLECTIONS of notes for different reasons, when quickly reading books and resources. etc

 

best wishes

Michael 

 ps In LOGOS 7 and before ( since Libronix) I have organised my own NOTE DOCUMENTS very efficiently and effectively, exactly as I want them, based on my own organisation system..., by dragging them off to the FAVOURITES MENU ( with an extensive system of folder and sub folder,s number, small large caps, blanks etc--- its a very neat USER CREATED LIBRARY -...and contains over 100,000 notes,,and thousands of pafe references to books and resources, all being constantly used and built up alongside various projects

 I can go to any one in a  few seconds at most, and I used NOTES DOCUMENTS in about 30 or more different ways

It is great the functionality of the favourites menu with notes has just been restored,

but I hope other Logos users appreciate and are aware of  this functionality---- with the TITLES in the TABS.....( and CONTEXT menu?!) 

Posts 3162
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 12:28 PM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Notebooks are analogous to old note documents, but they are not the same.

Once Notebooks are included in the Docs menu, do you think that users will recognize that difference?

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
are still discussing how much prominence to give them in the UI

Doesn't their upcoming visibility in Docs increase that prominence?

I wonder if users will still envision them as open documents, but wonder why they can no longer right-click to add a note to an open Notebook.

I do think new Notes is a huge improvement, but including Notebooks in Docs might blur the line between the old and the new ways of doing things.

Posts 24698
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 2:51 AM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
but it represents an important user experience (UX) design decision we have to make on behalf of our users.

The important decision was to minimise, and remove (some/much) of the functionality of L7 Note files, without consulting users; without their being aware that this would be a consequence of importing their Notes & Highlights into Logos 8 using Notebooks. If regarded as redundant, that is not the opinion of users, who also don't think it is "more work". That functionality (equivalence) should be maintained, without consideration of "prominence" in the UI.

Is it good design to have multiple instances of Notes without a unique Tab title (and I can extend that to aspects of the L8 Tab design)?  I am amazed that a note/highlight can end up in "No Notebook"; which can't be listed as a Filter item, but there is an obvious invitation to move it to a named Notebook. Now that is more work.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 24698
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 3:08 AM

PetahChristian:
I do think new Notes is a huge improvement, but including Notebooks in Docs might blur the line between the old and the new ways of doing things.

There are seeming contradictions in Adam's statements that you recognise, but I think it important to maintain an equivalence between the old and the new, and continue on with the truly new functionality that is a worthwhile improvement.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 6:44 AM

hi Dave

I couldn't agree more.

my ideal world would be as follows: 

.I would like to see both the old LOGOS 7 Notes Documents system and the new LOGOS 8 NOTES Tool running simultaneously,

with users able to choose which TYPE of note to create, and NO overlap between one type of note or another ( if technical reasons make it implausible to develop) .

(If users wanted to migrate all their Logos 7 notes into the New Logos 8 notes tool then they know it is a one way journey and they could not  create new notes in the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS)

All logos have to do is bring back the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS- with all thier old functionality

keep them as seperate entities to the new LOGOS 8 NOTES TOOL and users can choose each occasion what type of note they wish to create....

then can have the best of both worlds...!?!

best wishes

Michael 

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 11:50 AM

hi Adam

I cannot seem to message you to confirm how yet I'm not yet confident you/Logos does yet understand my request perfectly , without acknowledgement of the signficance of the associated functionalityTo be frank, I feel sure Logos would not have overlooked maintaining this functionality if it had fully understood it in the first place, sorry to be pedantic.

Some of the issues are covered in the posts following yours. I've tried messaging you to bring the points to your attention personally, but without success and I'm not sure if I should keep on trying to contact you/Logos by other means or whether you are on the case, despite no doubt having many demands on your time at present.

best wishes 

Posts 24698
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:09 PM

Michael Perry:

.I would like to see both the old LOGOS 7 Notes Documents system and the new LOGOS 8 NOTES Tool running simultaneously,

with users able to choose which TYPE of note to create, and NO overlap between one type of note or another ( if technical reasons make it implausible to develop)

You can switch to Logos 7 Notes with the command Set Prefer Notes Tool to No, followed by a restart. Notes can be added to your Note files and they will be transferred to the new Notes tool. Then you can switch back with Set Prefer Notes Tool to Yes (followed by a restart).

Faithlife is moving toward equivalence as stated above by Adam, and as seen in Logos 8.3 beta 1, so it is interesting to speculate when they will revoke the ability to switch back.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 3162
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:19 PM

Michael Perry:
then can have the best of both worlds...!?!

It's not the best of both worlds for developers to work on two different notes systems. The reality is that the old notes system will eventually go away.

Michael Perry:
All logos have to do is bring back the LOGOS 7 NOTES DOCUMENTS- with all thier old functionality

There were serious limitations (and performance issues) with the old notes documents.

I understand that it's disruptive for you now, but let's give FL the chance to improve the new notes system, and restore some of the missing functionality that FL is aware of and already working on. You might discover that the new notes system turns out to be better in the long run.

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:20 PM

Hi Dave

thanks for your reply. Just to double check, does this process of switching to the Logos 7 notes come without the SYNCING issues which was a former concern?

best wishes

Michael 

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:34 PM

hi Petah

thanks for your reply.

I have brought the issue to the forums quite late considering the impact on my workflow. It is not simply disruptive but disastrous to my long established workflows in several professional contexts. I would correspond directly with logos if I ought, as I did with Dan over the split screen issue around 2011. Now the forums seem more appropriate. I'm spending enormous amount of time using work arounds with much less functionality, not what I had expected to have been investing in. 

In addition I'm reporting the issue while trying to describe something of my patterns of working which are very powerful and I'm quite sure Logos developers and many other Logos users have not stumbled across or realised. Some might benefit from it aswell. 

i appreciate two sets of notes might at first seem complicated, but I have left it to Logos developers to work with the idea. I would more particularly sugge4sted not calling both "notes" but have quite different names, like "clippings" are different to notes. etc etc.

I would hope every Logos development only improves the program, that is what we all expect and hope for. I would hope there is additional functionalityuh in the new notes tool that is great. That is not my point, my point is the loss of something great and I'm confident Logos did not realise the power they had created in the potential of the former notes, and I'm still not sure logos has fully grasped it yet, or they would nto have overlooked it so easily. If I had been fully warned of the impact of switching to the new logos 8 notes tools i would not have done it, and would have waited until the new notes system had turned out better in the long run, but the new Logos notes tool not being there yet has been a disaster for me. I'm glad the interaction with the favourites menu and notes has been restored and that the titles in the windows tabs are on the way... just need the titles in the context menu returned and that should be most of it.... 

best wishes

Michael 

Posts 4588
Forum MVP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:45 PM

Michael Perry:
If I had been fully warned of the impact of switching to the new logos 8 notes tools i would not have done it

as Dave said above, you can switch back to the old system if it works better for you. 

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 12:47 PM

hi thanks for your reply.

.. and switch back without the SYNCING issues formerly reported..?

best wishes

Michael 

Posts 342
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 1:25 PM

Thank you everyone for your feedback. 

Michael Perry:
I'm not yet confident you/Logos does yet understand my request perfectly , without acknowledgement of the signficance of the associated functionality

I do understand you, Michael.  So far, everything you've said since my previous post is consistent with my understanding of your position. We do understand the significance of the missing functionality; that's why we have provided means to switch back to using Logos 7 notes until the new system is at parity.

Michael Perry:
I would like to see both the old LOGOS 7 Notes Documents system and the new LOGOS 8 NOTES Tool running simultaneously

This is not under consideration. For the time being you can choose on or the other (on the desktop application; there is no means of switching to old notes on mobile or web apps). The old notes system will be phased out later this year, when the Notes tool is feature-complete. 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 342
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2019 1:32 PM

Dave Hooton:
I am amazed that a note/highlight can end up in "No Notebook"; which can't be listed as a Filter item, but there is an obvious invitation to move it to a named Notebook.

This decision was made in part based on future/planned functionality; namely, the ability to filter based on facets for highlight palettes and styles. We aren't working on that right now, since our focus is on parity with old notes. In the meantime, you can still set highlights from specific palettes to save in a particular notebook or the active notebook (default). 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 24698
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2019 4:49 PM

Michael Perry:
Just to double check, does this process of switching to the Logos 7 notes come without the SYNCING issues which was a former concern?

I'm not sure about the issues to which you refer.

I checked that new notes/highlights in the old system will sync/transfer to the Notes tool. But you should be careful about updating notes, because you may already have updated them in the Notes tool (the transfer is only from old system to New).

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 74
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 16 2019 5:33 AM

hi Adam

can you add a SPLIT SCREEN to "CLIPPINGS DOCS" -???

this would help a lot with my request for restoration of functionality--

as CLIPPINGS DOCS already have titles in the windows tabs that show up in the CONTEXT MENU

( -also to be able

     a) / to INDENT clippings in the split screen in a clippings docs

      b) and a Corresponding HIGHLIGHT with the clipping which can be read in the resource, ie a yellow text highlight or a red underline  in and                corresponding to the book which the "clipping" is taken from etc 

      c) and vary NOTE HIGHLIGHTS and ICONS directly from  clippings)

many thanks

Michael 

ps then would effectively have the LOGOS 7 NOTE DOCS and LOGOS 8 NOTES TOOL running side by side?

and users can choose how to use the system/s?

But - "CLIPPINGS DOCS" need not feature in the NOTES TOOL tags system, ( plausbily, but not essentially... unless the CLIPPINGS DOIC has been sent to the NOTES TOOL 

Posts 21701
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 16 2019 6:10 AM

Michael Perry:
ps then would effectively have the LOGOS 7 NOTE DOCS and LOGOS 8 NOTES TOOL running side by side?

Sorry Michael but I don't understand.

While there is some overlap between notes and clippings there are a lot of significant differences as well

Can you expand a bit further please?

Sorry - I hadn't seen your points a-c above which provide more context.

That would be quite a significant change to the way Clippings work. From prior conversations I think the more likely change is that Clippings merge with the new Notes Tool. But no commitment / timescales to this as yet.

Page 2 of 3 (53 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS