Suggestion: Provide Synchronization Settings for User Files

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 1 2010 7:01 PM

For user files, notes and prayer requests specifically, Logos should provide the ability to determine what's synch'd and what's not. I would actually consider this request critical in terms of privacy and copyright protection, of little to no cost in terms of support, and little to no cost in terms of actually coding and supporting such a feature.

It would be nice if this were per note or prayer list--IE, on the options for that particular note or prayer list, there was a "synchronize this" option. Then you could select some files with "private" data to remain local, and others to be synchronized. I think Logos stores all your notes in a single database file right now (I can't seem to find a way to give someone my notes for a particular stretch of Scripture at the moment), so that might not be possible--it might need to be an all or nothing affair. But the stretch goal would be for individual notes file synchronization.

Russ

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 1 2010 10:36 PM

Russ White:

For user files, notes and prayer requests specifically, Logos should provide the ability to determine what's synch'd and what's not. I would actually consider this request critical in terms of privacy and copyright protection, of little to no cost in terms of support, and little to no cost in terms of actually coding and supporting such a feature.

It would be nice if this were per note or prayer list--IE, on the options for that particular note or prayer list, there was a "synchronize this" option. Then you could select some files with "private" data to remain local, and others to be synchronized. I think Logos stores all your notes in a single database file right now (I can't seem to find a way to give someone my notes for a particular stretch of Scripture at the moment), so that might not be possible--it might need to be an all or nothing affair. But the stretch goal would be for individual notes file synchronization.

Russ

I support this suggestion. It has been requested by many on this forum, and satisfies concerns about privacy and confidentiality held my many current and potential users.

This suggestion would work well, with another one I heard somewhere about sharing notes and other user generated data. This would give an option to copy such data from one computer to another, without needing to sync through the Amazon servers.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 2 2010 8:25 AM

Not only suggest it, but believe it should be done pro-actively in case legislative mandate provides for it in response to much of the more known and wide spread issues with google, facebook, etc.

In regard to tech support costs reasoning, it could be a "power user" option similar to the set update channel commands... A hidden set privacy settings feature would be very beneficial

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 10:20 AM

Just a note to point out how important this is. Within the company I work for--cisco--I know a good number of the Christians. Within the seminary I attend, I've been a force of constant pressure to adopt Logos. Today I went to lunch with three other Christians within cisco. Three of us already own Logos. One of these people have generally stopped using Logos because of this specific issue, and the second of the four has decided not to purchase Logos because of it. One other coworker I talked to this morning, who is considering seminary, stated he has no interest in software that stores his data in "the cloud." Note that in all cases, I didn't bring this up as an issue. It came up simply because we discussed the ability to synchronize data across multiple platforms. The first question any technical person is going to ask is, "How does it do that?" On my stating that the data resides in a cloud server, Logos lost three potential users.

In discussions with my seminary professors, there are two that don't like Logos at all. The two reasons they've given me is because Logos has a proprietary file format for resources and because Logos stores their personal data on "the internet." These folks aren't saavy enough to know how cloud services work, but they do know they don't trust services like Facebook, and so they won't trust Logos storing their data on "the internet" any more than they would Facebook.

IMHO, this is major issue for Logos, and as people become more distrustful of all online services, control of data--regardless of whether or not someone else thinks I have "something to hide"--is going to be a huge issue.

I would argue that this specific request should take precedence over many others because the impact is much less obvious than others, and once Logos gets the reputation of storing personal data on "the cloud," it's going to be extremely hard to reverse that reputation on the marketing side. It will be much cheaper to change this now than it will be to fight through the perception in several years.

Russ

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 12:16 PM

Russ White:
they don't trust services like Facebook, and so they won't trust Logos storing their data on "the internet" any more than they would Facebook.

I agree with you Russ.  Logos & L4 has an image problem.  I know my seminary professors are not a big fan of Logos software.  I too have talked to people, and after our conversations, they have decided not to purchase L4 because of this issue (along with the hardware requirements to run the program).

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 6:19 PM

Deleted and moved to another thread.

Russ

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 10:54 PM

Russ White:
In discussions with my seminary professors, there are two that don't like Logos at all. The two reasons they've given me is because Logos has a proprietary file format for resources and because Logos stores their personal data on "the internet."

I've responded to the cloud issues in a different thread; I'd really love to talk to a prof who has concerns about the proprietary file format. Would you mind asking one of these profs if they'd be willing to talk by phone? I'd like to try and explain the issues, and why our file format is what makes our software so useful.

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 11:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I'd really love to talk to a prof who has concerns ... 

I know I've taken your quote out of context a little, but ...

What of the concern by those that wont buy, or wont recommend the product, as long as it stores our data on "the internet"?

Bob - Please add an option to the metadata for each item, and a UI so we can turn SYNC off if we wish.

If you like, add a global setting to keep this new UI hidden, unless someone enabled "Sync Control by Item", so for those that don't care about the issues, or don't want a complex UI etc, they can have it their way, while the rest of us can be selective about syncing.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:32 AM

Russ White:
as people become more distrustful of all online services, control of data--regardless of whether or not someone else thinks I have "something to hide"--is going to be a huge issue.

I find it ironic that three Cisco employees have a problem with companies having access to personal data considering their own company has been collecting data and actually using that mined data. Check this wiki criticism under the "China" paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_Systems

Cisco has been using a "cloud" model for decades. All of General Motors payroll data was handled through the Cisco "cloud." Even the assembly lines were wired to Detroit through Cisco routers.

I seriously doubt Bible Professors have any data worth raising any eyebrow over, These same unsavy users probably use Bluetooth and wireless hotspots regularly.

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:52 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Russ White:
as people become more distrustful of all online services, control of data--regardless of whether or not someone else thinks I have "something to hide"--is going to be a huge issue.

I find it ironic that three Cisco employees have a problem with companies having access to personal data considering their own company has been collecting data and actually using that mined data. Check this wiki criticism under the "China" paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_Systems

Cisco has been using a "cloud" model for decades. All of General Motors payroll data was handled through the Cisco "cloud." Even the assembly lines were wired to Detroit through Cisco routers.

(edited--I'm trying not to start an issue here).

Cisco doesn't sell cloud services. At least I'm not aware of the business unit within cisco that would sell such a thing. Cisco sells routers, switches, network appliances, VOIP systems, and mostly a lot of other hardware. If you can find the business unit that actually sells a "cloud service," comprable to Amazon C3 on the cisco.com web site, please feel free to forward it to me. I've been working at cisco for 14+ years, and actually hold a technical position parallel to a director. I've worked in almost every part of cisco over my time here, and I've never heard of such a thing.

Cisco has been criticized for providing specific features to specific governments--including the Chinese--and I have struggled, morally, with such issues in my own time. But the only network cisco actually operates is the internal cisco network. We do have some newer services coming up where we will "outsource" the operation of a company's network for them, much like AT&T and other providers do (and much like IBM does still), but running someone elses' network isn't quite the same as actually owning such a network.

My point was that I went out to lunch with some colleagues who have a clue about computers, not to drag the company I work for into the mix.

Russ

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:54 PM

Would you mind asking one of these profs if they'd be willing to talk by phone? I'd like to try and explain the issues, and why our file format is what makes our software so useful.

I could ask--I don't know what the response would be. The one professor I know who really holds to this view is a big Bibleworks fan, so that might be a part of the problem. You'll note I've not said anything about the file format--because I can explain that in terms of tagging and other capabilities. It's the synching data without the option to turn it off that I can't explain or defend.

Russ

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James Ng | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:57 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Cisco has been using a "cloud" model for decades. All of General Motors payroll data was handled through the Cisco "cloud." Even the assembly lines were wired to Detroit through Cisco routers.

I think you're confusing ROUTED traffic with a "cloud" model.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 1:43 PM

James Ng:
I think you're confusing ROUTED traffic with a "cloud" model.

Nope. I mentioned both because I do see a difference. But the "dangers" the privacy advocates are so paranoid about are the commonalities I am saying we have had for decades. It doesn't matter if you are talking about Ada, the SETI project, Linux distributed computing, GM's payroll,  or just multi-national mirrors of a BBS file server. The true cloud model is better represented by P2P file sharing and torrents. I'm familiar with every one of these; the commonalities & the differences. (I even watched GM's Cisco based network get hacked.)

Not confused, just saying "the cloud" is not your enemy, lax security is.

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 2:42 PM

Not confused, just saying "the cloud" is not your enemy, lax security is.

Since security is the ability to control where my data goes, and who reads it, and "the cloud," as presented here, is all about not being able to control your data (the implicit admission of saying, "then don't put your private data in there"), then lax security is what we're talking about here. If Logos encrypted my data using my key, or if Logos allowed me to control the scope of my data in some other way (connections to outside software, control over synchronization), then the lax security problem would be solved.

Saying it's "lax security" is one thing. Defining where the security lax, and how to resolve the problem, is what we've been dealing with. So far, I see three solutions.

1. Make it so we can encrypt data synch'd to the server with our own password. Evernote already supports this on some of its platforms.

2. Make it so we can choose what to synch up to the server--that's what this request is about. Evernote, again, already supports this across all its platforms.

3. Make it so we can easily crosslink  all our personal data to an outside software package--that's what my request on the other thread is about. IE, the ability to paste a URL in just like a note is done today.

I, personally, would find any of the above fine. I think, from the conditions that laid down by Bob--he doesn't want to put the options in the software, and he doesn't want to put the encryption in the software--the third is the best option to pursue. It's not the one I would pursue, if I were the President of Logos, because it actually reduces the value of the software in a major way, but it's the one that best fits the requirements given to this point. The kicker is that if #3 were provided as a feature, it would also solve the problems people have with the capabilities of the notes--another source of long threads here.

Russ

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 2:51 PM

Russ White:

Would you mind asking one of these profs if they'd be willing to talk by phone? I'd like to try and explain the issues, and why our file format is what makes our software so useful.

I could ask--I don't know what the response would be. The one professor I know who really holds to this view is a big Bibleworks fan, so that might be a part of the problem. You'll note I've not said anything about the file format--because I can explain that in terms of tagging and other capabilities. It's the synching data without the option to turn it off that I can't explain or defend.

Russ

BTW, I think I've confused things here a little. The one professor I was working with today started with--"can I get my data out of the notes, or are they in proprietary format?" I explained that bit--that Logos is working on ways to get your data out of the notes. The second question was--"how are my notes synch'd between my various computers?" After explaining that bit, his response was--"then I won't use the notes. What are you doing?"

The conversation then moved into how I was playing with different solutions to this very problem, mostly focused on onenote at that moment, but now I'm looking at Evernote as well.

Russ

 

Posts 82
James Ng | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 4:07 PM

Matthew C Jones:

James Ng:
I think you're confusing ROUTED traffic with a "cloud" model.

Nope. I mentioned both because I do see a difference. But the "dangers" the privacy advocates are so paranoid about are the commonalities I am saying we have had for decades. It doesn't matter if you are talking about Ada, the SETI project, Linux distributed computing, GM's payroll,  or just multi-national mirrors of a BBS file server. The true cloud model is better represented by P2P file sharing and torrents. I'm familiar with every one of these; the commonalities & the differences. (I even watched GM's Cisco based network get hacked.)

Not confused, just saying "the cloud" is not your enemy, lax security is.

Sorry but your terminology isn't what most people term as "Cloud Computing" today. SETI and Linux distributed computing is completely different than Cloud Computing. Citrix and Thin Clients are examples of Cloud Computing or could be, VDI could be considered Cloud if you think about it. P2P, File Sharing and Torrents aren't even in the discussion. You're confusing things with not on your computer as "Cloud" when it isn't. Logos 4 for PC and Mac isn't even close to Cloud Computing yet. It just syncs data. You could argue the iPad implementation is getting closer towards that.

Not to drag things further off topic.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 4:46 PM

James Ng:

Sorry but your terminology isn't what most people term as "Cloud Computing" today. SETI and Linux distributed computing is completely different than Cloud Computing. Citrix and Thin Clients are examples of Cloud Computing or could be, VDI could be considered Cloud if you think about it. P2P, File Sharing and Torrents aren't even in the discussion. You're confusing things with not on your computer as "Cloud" when it isn't. Logos 4 for PC and Mac isn't even close to Cloud Computing yet. It just syncs data. You could argue the iPad implementation is getting closer towards that.

Not to drag things further off topic.

Not to beat a dead horse, but... To add more technical "stuff" to James' response. Cloud computing is very similar to a "distributed mainframe," in effect, with something like a thick/thin client structure using XML based interfaces rather than TN3270, SQL, and other sorts of odds and ends. The clients are generally envisioned as being close to terminals on a mainframe, possibly with some level of local processing (a "smart terminal," if you remember those).

Distributed linux isn't really "cloud," because it's not a client/server model. You could use distributed linux to build a cloud service, but the O/S side of it doesn't have anything to do with the way the service is provided. P2P and the various torrents are really just like a Banyan or Novell file share from the old days, or a file service on a Windows share <blech> if you want to go that direction. Both Banyan and Novell could do a distributed share when I worked with them--Vines 5 is about where I left off, and Novell 4.11 is the last server only O/S I really supported (a long time ago, when I was a young CNE, working on my CBE).

Cloud has some additional components to work around the distributed environment--primarily marshaling services and some form of service advertisement (you didn't need this with a mainframe--but something like Novell SAP, or Vines Streetalk). Cisco has SAF in this space, MS is pushing X.500, and there are several others out there--XMPP is probably the best known at this moment, I think, and probably has the odds on chance of becoming the "standard," I think. Cisco doesn't do marshaling at the moment--though it's a hotly debated topic. Don't know what the outcome will be there.

So, that's a more technical explanation, if you really were looking for one... Not that I think you probably were, but, well, there it is anyway.

To try and get back to the point, what Logos is doing right now is using Amazon's C3 service as a Banyan file service, or a Novell file share, or just a shared drive. But what Bob is saying is he's moving Logos towards more of a thin client model, where the local device essentially stores nothing, it just does some of the processing. Again, 'the cloud" won't ever happen this way. Mainframes failed as a model for a reason--the cost of the network became greater than the cost of the local hard drive. There's no way the network can ever win the battle against local storage. Been there, done that, I have the t-shirt.

But all of that is somewhat tangetal to the discussion at hand. Just going through this exercise for those who want to know.

:-)

Russ

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 4:54 PM

James Ng:
Sorry but your terminology isn't what most people term as "Cloud Computing" today

I'd still call P2P  closer to a real cloud model than MS or Google. Resources are truly shared, making it impossible to actually serve warrants on any host hardware because the torrents are spread out.  Also, when we replaced the network at the Eastern Airlines terminal in OKC (IBM PS/2 model 80 MicroChannel Architecture)  with thin clients the setup was very much a "cloud."  There wasn't anything in the machine to store anything on. If you want to sound an alarm for securing "private" data, you are 30 years too late. If you want to pretend the kiddos just invented "the cloud" last week,  Al Gore (inventor of the Internet Wink  ) will contend with you. My whole argument is "You have no privacy on the internet." I'm not limiting my scope to MS, Google, Amazon & Logos. To imply you can have "privacy" of personal data if only you don't synch your Logos while using browsers to post to these forums is incorrect. Challenge my semantics all day. The "privacy" crusade is a farce.

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 5:02 PM

I'm not quite sure what the 'cloud' is anymore. All these explanations seem a bit [clears throat] nebulous to me.

But that's irrelevant to the point of this thread: some users want greater control over what gets sent to the Logos' server space at Amazon. If that's called a cloud, or smoke signals, it doesn't matter. The issue is control over what goes there.

And in the words of Forest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 5:02 PM

Matthew C Jones:
My whole argument is "You have no privacy on the internet." I'm not limiting my scope to MS, Google, Amazon & Logos. To imply you can have "privacy" of personal data if only you don't synch your Logos while using browsers to post to these forums is incorrect. Challenge my semantics all day. The "privacy" crusade is a farce.

Correct--you have no privacy on the Internet. There are only two solutions to this problem:

1. Don't put your data there.

2. Encrypt your data in a way you trust.

All we're asking is for Logos to give us the tools to do one or the other. To say, "don't put your data in Logos, because Logos will never give you the tools to control your data," is, IMHO, a copout. Especially if you're telling us at the same time that we have no choice, because in the future, all our data will be on "the cloud" anyway. If you really believe you see the future, and it's really "the cloud," and you know there are problems with that future, don't just tell us to go back to paper notepads. Instead, solve the problem.

:-)

Russ

P.S. --I've just edited to point something out. Just because you can't lock your windows effectively doesn't mean you just give up and leave everything unlocked. Instead, you lock what you can, and learn how to lock the rest over time. The responsible window manufacturer doesn't say, "well your door locks aren't any good, so I won't sell you a window with locks." That's nonsense.

"To imply you have privacy of personal data only if you don't synch your Logos while using browsers to post to the forums is incorrect." This statement is riddled with logical errors. The first is the false dichotomy; there are more than two choices, total privacy vs no privacy at all. The second is falsely equating one sort of data with another; posts to this forum contain certain amounts of information of a specific type. Things I put in notes files have a different type of information altogether.

So far, I've offered at least three possible solutions I think would be acceptable to the problem at hand. The only solution you've offered is, "don't bother, you can't protect your data anyway." Which is more reasonable? Attacking the problem, or just ignoring it and hope it goes away?

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