Usefulness of Logos 4

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This post has 35 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 1:54 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
Robert Pavich, you addressed your comment to me and I really don't understand what I said that caused you to address it to me, can you please show me which of my comments you are talking about.

Jim,

No problem, keep in mind that I did say that this "wasn't a slam on you..."

 

 

This was one:

JimVanSchoonhoven:

One of the things that bothers me is that some users can not believe that Logos 4 could be of less use to some, than Libronix 3, but it is true, believe it or not the computer issue is a problem for many, and if you like to print things, not having a print option is a big deal.

 

That's why I said that we DO know that some like L3 more...we're not oblivious.

 

And you said:

 

 

 

JimVanSchoonhoven:

On the other hand they still are not nearly as useable as Libronix 3.

 

That's one of the "dogmatic statements" that I referred to. (as opposed to this statement: "...on the other hand...for me and the way I like to work, they are still not as useable as L3")

 

This also was one:

 

JimVanSchoonhoven:

Some of these same folks consider it to be negative to agree with those having issues with Logos 4, and showing them they can use Libtonix until L4 is more useful to them than L3 is.

Which is why I pointed out that we know that some people don't like it...but many times it's not phrased as a preference. Upon looking at your sentence here..I'm going to have to go ahead and agree with you and say that I was off base on this.

 

 

JimVanSchoonhoven:

 It also bothers me that just because I have a different opinion about Logos 4 some would consider that to be so negative, that they would rather I did not post. Well just because we disagree does not mean I don't love Logos. In fact pointing out that we disagree can be used either as a negative or a positive.

It wasn't the agreeing or disagreeing that I had an issue with...it was the "dogmatism" of the statements that should have been phrased as preferences.

 

 

Jim, one last thing I'd like to make sure you understand. Your post was kind and gentile and probably I was just worn out from the "Logos is using the cloud!" thread and took my agressions out on you, brother...

 

Now that I look at your post and think about it....this is pretty respectful and mild compared to some.

 

So, don't take this personally ok?

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 8:39 PM

Robert,  of course I took your comments personally they were addressed to me.  BUT don't get me wrong, that does not mean I thought bad of them.  I just wanted to know some examples of where you thought I was out of line,  after seeing them, my comment about your comment, is to please make sure you judge your posts by the same standard.

I also want to point something out about the terms that are being used, I know some might find them offensive, but all comments have some kind of context, so when I hear some one say Logos 4 is the best all around program ever, I know He or She is talking about that is His or Her view of it.  If some one else says it is garbage compared to Libronix 3, I know that is only their view of it and I also know something about the state of their mind. 

I do not get offended by such expressions, I am actually glad to know the extra information.  It can many times help me to help them.  I saw another thread started by you that deals with the use of this kind of language, I understand your point of view, and  I noticed a lot of  people with stars by their names were agreeing with you, but I say maybe they should not let such things bother them, instead turn things around by using this extra information to help the person.  For example: This program is garbage.  Why do you say it is garbage what really bothers you about the program.  You and I know the program isn't garbage, but we also know this person is hurting.

People that come to these forums and are having serious problems with Logos 4, are hurting people, some how their great hopes of bible study have been dashed.  I want to help them get back on that road to being able to use what they have until Logos 4 can make them happy.

Please keep in mind I spent a number of years coaching pro mountain bikers and have been around a lot of people that say some mean things and do some mean things, so hearing some one say Logos is garbage really doesn't hardly catch my attention.

By the way on a side note, one of my bikers will be on America's Got Talent in the next few weeks.  I am kind of happy for him, it is doing something different than competition and having a great time.  He will be riding his bike,  he is the first bike rider to ever make it on the broadcast part of the show.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 3:53 AM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
I also want to point something out about the terms that are being used, I know some might find them offensive, but all comments have some kind of context, so when I hear some one say Logos 4 is the best all around program ever, I know He or She is talking about that is His or Her view of it.

You are right, Jim, I need to remember that...thank you.

 

JimVanSchoonhoven:
 I noticed a lot of  people with stars by their names were agreeing with you, but I say maybe they should not let such things bother them, instead turn things around by using this extra information to help the person. 

 

Also true brother...

 

JimVanSchoonhoven:
Please keep in mind I spent a number of years coaching pro mountain bikers and have been around a lot of people that say some mean things and do some mean things, so hearing some one say Logos is garbage really doesn't hardly catch my attention.

 

Then it's obvious that I lack your resilience.

 

Brother, thanks for enlightening me...hopefully in the future people will think about their phrasing, and I can mentally insert the words "this is just my opinion" when I read those types of messages.

 

God bless,

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 4:13 PM

Robert, please notice one more thing that I have notice about the posts that contain the type comments we are talking about. 

Most of them have a very low post count!!! 

The majority of these people are going to respond with these terms, if for no other reason than, number one they are hurt and mad, and number two they have no idea that any one else is sick and tired of hearing such "wild claims".  They have no idea how many other posters you or anyone else have dealt with that have called the program garbage, use less or said that it stinks. 

Most of these people know one thing, they have a problem with Logos and have just found the forums, they are frustrated and think there is no hope of the program ever meeting their needs.  Some of them are poor and spent a large amount of money on a program they had hoped would help them to understand the bible.  For what ever reason it hasn't worked for them so their only contact with Logos is bad!

They feel like they were ripped off!

The responds given by us will go a long way in either confirming what they were afraid of or giving them some hope that their problem with Logos can be overcome.

In Christ,

Jim 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 4:20 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
The responds given by us will go a long way in either confirming what they were afraid of or giving them some hope that their problem with Logos can be overcome.

 

Jim,

another good point. I'll really try and take all of the advice I've gotten to heart..its' been good advice.

Thanks again brother...

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 1:47 PM

It's a shame Melvyn hasn't given any specifics of what he used to do in Logos3 that he can't do in V4 - maybe some of the experienced V4 users could help him find a way to emulate them or be able to assure him that support for those features is coming...

I can't wait (well, actually I can because I have to), for PBB and Sentence Diags. Better printing would be nice and, while we're at it, a top notch reporting Tool with PDF export would be fantastic. And then an e-book builder that lets me sell the fruits of my research online with a built in website designer and e-commerce store...

Sigh. We can all dream. Being British, I hope V4 will eventually access my online tea making hardware and make regular brews for me...

I have to admit I don't pay much attention to the Logos4 doesn't do x and y and z threads anymore - I have come to view it as a brand new technology and that the V4 is a bit of a misnomer. Logos4 will mature and get better and better. I'm sure the Logos team will address the various issues that keep getting raised and will find solutions that please, at least, a large proportion of us.

In the meantime - I say be patient. My view is that there is no substitute for sincere, honest and open minded Bible study and that Logos is a tool to make it easier to do the research bit. Even if V4 is not as efficient or feature rich as v3 in the end I can still use it to delve deeply into the Word. Then comes the real challenge - applying what I have learned...

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 2:44 PM

Andy Bell:

It's a shame Melvyn hasn't given any specifics of what he used to do in Logos3 that he can't do in V4 - maybe some of the experienced V4 users could help him find a way to emulate them or be able to assure him that support for those features is coming...

I can't wait (well, actually I can because I have to), for PBB and Sentence Diags. Better printing would be nice and, while we're at it, a top notch reporting Tool with PDF export would be fantastic. And then an e-book builder that lets me sell the fruits of my research online with a built in website designer and e-commerce store...

Sigh. We can all dream. Being British, I hope V4 will eventually access my online tea making hardware and make regular brews for me...

I have to admit I don't pay much attention to the Logos4 doesn't do x and y and z threads anymore - I have come to view it as a brand new technology and that the V4 is a bit of a misnomer. Logos4 will mature and get better and better. I'm sure the Logos team will address the various issues that keep getting raised and will find solutions that please, at least, a large proportion of us.

In the meantime - I say be patient. My view is that there is no substitute for sincere, honest and open minded Bible study and that Logos is a tool to make it easier to do the research bit. Even if V4 is not as efficient or feature rich as v3 in the end I can still use it to delve deeply into the Word. Then comes the real challenge - applying what I have learned...

Andy...

You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you..... Big Smile

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 3:03 PM

Robert Pavich:
You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you..... Big Smile

Nah! It's cos you're learning!Smile.

I wanted to clarify one thing: I'm not saying we shouldn't report issues, make suggestions, etc etc. And if we have concerns we should express them. It's in our and Logos' interest for the product to improve. But maybe we (and I definitely include me in the 'we') need to improve in the way we report these things and the way we respond to others' suggestions and, even, complaints...

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 3:03 PM

Robert Pavich:

Andy...

You must be getting smarter....cause I keep agreeing with you..... Big Smile

Bob, I think we finally got through to Andy. Smile

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 3:43 PM

Andy Bell:
Nah! It's cos you're learning!Smile.

I never knew he could do that.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 4:40 PM

Philip Spitzer:
I never knew he could do that.

That was ice cold... Crying

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 4:43 PM

Robert Pavich:
That was ice cold... Crying

Sorry....couldn't resist...

Posts 2874
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 6 2010 7:53 PM

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and their "say" about it.  Everyone deserves to have their opinion respected.

But, hey, even if you prefer Logos 3, the upgrade to L4 probably got you some wonderful new resources for Logos 3.  After all, we paid for the books we bought, not the engine of L4 - well maybe about $70 for the engine if you did the minimal upgrade.  Why not celebrate the new books for Logos 3?

Why not keep doing what you were doing before, only with lots of new books, while you wait for Logos to get L4 right, in your opinion? 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 7 2010 5:58 AM

MelvynSanford:

Just when I was getting used to the complexities of the CD-based Logos Scholar's Edition, Logos introduced its new 4th edition. Now I find I can't do anything I could do before. Logos seems to have simplified everything to the point of making nothing available. Even after having studied the tutoring videos, I can't find any of the rich levels of research I used to enjoy.

 In consequence, I've given up my  attempts to use the new system. I ignore it entirely and all offers to add new works. I don't even open it anymore. What a tragedy. I'm finding that my iPod Touch is offering better services.  

 

Mel Sanford 

 

Hi Mel,

I know exactly how you feel.  I very seldom use ~any~ Logos resources anymore.  I found the move to L4 rushed and the software wanting.  Aftrer months, the software for L4 has not shown any great leaps in usability.  I don't like how there is so much integrated "social media" fluff either.  How that could be a priority over notes and printing is beyond me.  When Bob P. noted that Logos 4 had just about all of the features done and he was starting to think about Logos 5, that floored me.  No more money for Logos is flying out of my wallet.  Buying their products now makes me feel like an enabler for their bad habits.

L4 *did* serve to show me one thing, and that ONE thing was to realize what a convoluted mess installing L3 was, with all my add-ons.  Too bad energy was not spent on making L3 install like L4 does.  I won't bother to install L3 anymore because it's not supported.  L4 looks like it's going to take years to get working right and with any speed and a lot of that stems from the extremely poor choice of using JIT code.  I've also noticed that Logos has taken a page from Wordpress in many of the directions that it goes in but Logos is not able to pull it off.  Someone at Logos sure likes Wordpress though, and it shows up in many areas of how Logos handles their customer service, social networking, and in the code itself.

This post will likely tick off the folks that are hypnotized by the kool-aid.  I don't care.  I paid a lot of loot over the years for Logos resources - and I don't sit on my padded backside with a book allowance.  Since L4 came out I have been having a ball buying REAL BOOKS. 

Logos is going to have to pull a rabbit out of something before I'll send them another dime.  And I'm not griping or venting - this is how I feel about it all day long every day and have felt since L4 was released.

Since I am not a man-pleaser I have no trouble at all expressing my opinion.

And yes Mel, it is a tragedy.  L4 is kind of like WindowsME.

Have a nice day!

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 7 2010 7:12 AM

MikeM:
L4 looks like it's going to take years to get working right and with any speed and a lot of that stems from the extremely poor choice of using JIT code.

This is just not true that "a lot of that" is due to JIT code. Comparing the sophistication of the software stack (architectures used) between L3 and L4 is night and day. Many User Interface functions in L4 could never be implemented in L3.  On very old machines there may not be the ability to realize some of the advantages of JIT coding, but there are some very real advantages in performance, such as the following:

The JIT compiler knows precisely which CPU the user has installed in their computer causing the JIT compiler to produce native instructions that are specific to the user's machine. When you use an unmanaged (not-JIT) compiler, the compiler usually emits code for an Intel Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium III, or Pentium 4 processor. In a complex application this can make a big difference. And despite the pain of people with older computers, people are buying new computers at a very high obsolescence rate.  If 70% of the consumers have a computer 3 years old or less (just for example), people with 5 year old computers will be at a great disadvantage because they are not a viable market for anyone.

The JIT compiler knows if the machine has a single CPU or multiple CPUs installed. If a single CPU is installed, certain thread synchronization mechanisms don't have to be employed. Again this is of value on more modern setups, but even laptops today are readily employing at least 2 CPUs/cores.

When a method is JIT compiled, the compiler emits the native CPU instructions. Some of these instructions contain memory addresses that refer to variables or methods. By contrast, an unmanaged compiler and linker emit native CPU instructions that contain memory addresses when building the resulting file. This file must contain relocation information; if Windows can't load the file at its preferred base address, then the embedded memory addresses are incorrect and they must be fixed-up by the Windows' loader. Dynamic relocation (rebasing) significantly hurts the load time of unmanaged code.

The system is able to collect statistics about how the program is actually running in the environment it is in, and it can rearrange and recompile for optimum performance.

One last point - JIT-based software solutions are so prevalent today because it is the only feasible way to get the function and features that people want in their apps running well on the myriad of hardware that must be supported equally well to take advantage of all its features (especially CPU and graphics boards).  I have a 2-CPU laptop and an 8-CPU desktop.  Try writing software in C++ with static compilation that takes advantage of all that horsepower (you can do JIT with C++ by the way).   When was the last software language created that is used in enterprise/complex application development? About 30 years ago? HOw many JIT languages have been created since then? At least a dozen, maybe more?  If JIT was so bad why hasn't the computer science community trashed it and moved in another direction?  Because the advantages of JIT code are too overwhelming in solving computer science problems.

Now of course this can all sound like theory to someone, and we all have our opinions.  I just want to respectfully submit that there are many high performance applications in the world, running key business segments of large corporations, written with JIT code.  To deduce that Logos 4 is slow on my machine, Logos 4 now uses JIT, therefore JIT is bad, is simply illogical for one, and unsupported by anything Logos has said (and they, and Bob, have commented extensively on the topic).

I have L3 and L4 installed, and while 6 months ago I used both about 50%, I now use L4 98% of the time now because it is just painfully torturous to go back to the L3 way of doing things once I have learned L4. I don't think that is "hypnotized by the kool-aid", as I have both choices.  Some folks just disagree with your opinion, that's all.

Clearly L4 runs poorly on some people's computers, that is an absolute given. It also runs fine on many others.  Forced obsolescence stinks sometimes, for sure.  The people who rode buggies were probably pretty miffed when they went away almost overnight.  I invested tons in my record collection, my 8-track collection, and the world *could* have kept that going if it wanted to - at the price of progress and innovation.  And if all this software still ran on a PC that was purchased 15 years ago I would have saved a lot of investment in hardware and software over the last 15 years (and that's not so unreasonable is it? Many people have a 15 year old TV, VCR, phone....why not computer?)

So progress steps on people and we are at an inflexion point. Granted.

 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 7 2010 9:31 AM

I'm really sorry you feel this way. I think you may not be keeping up with the latest developments. Logos 4.0c really is a fine piece of software with broader functionality than Version 3 has. Yes, there are features in Version 3 that are not yet implemented under Version 4. Some features will never be but have been replaced with a different way of doing things instead.  There are lot's of instructional videos and wiki articles available. Many posts in the forum give detailed advice on how to accomplish different things in Verion 4.

MikeM:
I paid a lot of loot over the years for Logos resources - and I don't sit on my padded backside with a book allowance.

I too would be very frustrated if I found Logos unusable after a large investment.
(The replacement value of my collection at actual sale prices is presently $23,000. And that doesn't count my Pre-Pub orders or purchases made before 2008. No book allowance either!)

For your own health's sake let's try and make Logos useful for you. Can you give us a starting point to work with? What do you want to accomplish first?

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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