Cloud Computing: Why you can't sync selectively

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Posts 607
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 6:56 AM

Dennis Miller:
If logos ever abandons local resources on my desktop or laptop then I will look for an alternative application that does not rely upon the cloud only.

For some of us (and maybe you, too), this may not be an option.  I have invested nearly $10000 (maybe more) in resources over the 10+ years I've used Logos.  I can't just pick up and leave.  There's too much invested.  I guess this is why so many people feel strongly about certain issues.  I appreciate the cloud however I am skeptical.  I am cautiously waiting to see how it pans out.  With L3, if I needed to do a re-installation, I could easily do it without an internet connection.  I don't like relying on the Internet.

 

The cloud has served its purposes for me, too.  I too have re-imaged my hard drive several times in the last year and despite the long process, I was glad that I was able to get everything back.  I appreciate being able to read books on my iPhone.  But I am still skeptical.

 

Just my .02 worth.

 

John

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 7:00 AM

The only reason "cloud computing" is taking off right now is because bandwidth is essentially free--and this is a situation that simply cannot last.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704025304575284961190193360.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

Working on the "back side of the plug," I can tell you that rising energy costs, decreasing competition, increasing government regulation, and many other points of contact are making the price of providing bandwidth rise, not drop. And as much as people might rebel against it, there's going to come a day when you're going to pay for all those "free" downloads, in terms of usage. At that point, shipping a DVD full of data will suddenly become "hip" again.

There's an illustration in the first section of Tannenbaum's (sp?) "Networking" book, a classic I read many many years ago when I first started learning how networks actually work. In those days, VHS tapes were the "high point" of data storage. As an illustration about the concept of bandwidth vs delay, the author used the illustration of a station wagon full of VHS tapes full of data. He computed the bandwidth of the station wagon full of tapes, and found it was not only faster than any available link, it was faster than any imaginable link--and cheaper, too. Today the experiment could be run with dual layer Blu-ray's, or some such, in a minivan, or some such--and the result would be the same.

The only thing networks are good at is cutting delay, not providing bandwidth. Networks are, in the end, a sop to human impatience, and nothing more. At some point, when cutting delay becomes expensive, you have to decide what it's really worth paying for in terms of low delay data. And when that day arrives, "the cloud" will die. Someone will figure out it's cheaper to send out delivery trucks with relatively unchanging data, rather than downloading it over and over again. The only thing that will stop this is if the scope of data available on the "global network" simply outpaces the rate at which people can create new content. In the fully narcissistic society we live in, I don't think we're anywhere near close to that one.

Just simple reality from a network engineer's point of view.

Russ

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 7:07 AM

Then give us a way to store notes outside the application, so we can use just the resources, and nothing else.

Why can't you do this now? (I'm not sure what you're asking for--in this instance)

Because there is no practical way to link from the resources within Logos to data in other software--and that is the most useful link. I don't want a piece of software that allows me to link a verse to a note, I want a piece of software that lets me link a note to a verse--or any other resource. Today, to link a verse to a note, I must build a note for that verse, build the note in the outside software, and then copy the link from the outside software into the note in Logos. To get to my note from the verse (or passage in any other resource), I must open the resource, see I've made the note, click on the note, which opens the notes inside Logos, then open the real data in the other software.

If Logos made it possible for me to make a direct url link at any point in any resource, like the internal notes are today, I wouldn't care what they synchronized where--my data just wouldn't be in Logos. As it is, I have thousands of dollars invested in Logos, and lots of time convincing people they should use this software, and no real way to use it in a way I'm comfortable about.

BTW--I did post on this just yesterday in the suggestions forum.

Russ

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 8:07 AM

For me, the cloud issue has two components.

1) I love the syncing - being able to pick up where I left off, not having to load CDs, make sure all the files are copied - wait, one is still missing - that part is great.  Also not worrying about syncing the licenses, since that happens automatically.

2) My concern is, like others, the bandwidth/reinstall question.  I currently have basically unlimited internet access.  So downloads are not a problem.  But I could easily foresee being in a more rural area in a year or two when I transition from work into a pastorate. I'm wondering if I purchase the media DVD: http://www.logos.com/products/details/5579 and then turn off updates, would I be able to get by without (fast) internet access by just installing from the DVD, or would it immediately need to download updates?  Assuming the media DVD is kept up to date, that works for me in terms of the bandwidth problem.  Obviously there's a shipping delay, but I could live with that, and update it a few times a year. I'd lose the cloud features, but that might be the only practical option in my hypothetical situation.

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 8:14 AM

Bob, I also understand your concerns about complexity, support, and user education/helpdesk issues.  I've worked IT support most of my (adult) life, and I realize what should be obvious often isn't, and the exponential problems added by each option/checkbox. 

However, given the amount of money we have invested in Logos, and that most of us plan to continue investing, it would be great to have a simple solution for both computer illiterate/non-techie users (ie just download this file, put in your username/password, and go) and more techie/paranoid users who want both the cloud features sometimes and other times just the security of some kind of media or way to back up content in the event my internet is slow/unavailable, so I can continue to access the hundreds of amazing resources we have in Logos.  Maybe it's there, and I'm unaware - I'd love to be educated on this.  If not, I think there's enough of both types of customers that a minimum compromise will let both work (semi) happily without ridiculously increasing the support costs.

Personally, if there is an unofficial method of backing up/avoiding reindexing, I will definitely try it (and have done so successfully), but I will not harass Logos tech support when it doesn't work.  But I'm sure not everyone is willing to go that route.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 8:26 AM

Russ White:
Then give us a way to store notes outside the application, so we can use just the resources, and nothing else.

Will this work?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 9:02 AM

John, Yes this is kind of where I'm at with Logos also, I have too much money already invested in books and resources to switch now. But, I can honestly say that after switching to Mac's a couple of years ago I was seriously looking at Accordance until the first Logos Mac version came out which by the way never materialized into a stable and viable application compared to Logos 3 on the PC. Then again after this fiasco of upgrading to L4 and finding out the app wasn't even developed yet for the Mac I again considered moving to Accordance. But, being the loyal Logos user that I am and hoping they would take Mac development serious, which they have, I have stuck it out and am starting to see some good progress. Now that I am an iPad and iPhone user also, the Logos App is the reason I finally got an iPhone, I hope these continue to evolve and become more functional. I personally think that will happen with the release of OS 4.0 for both devices. Until then I'll crawl along with what I've got, wait for the completion of the Mac version and then maybe before L5 is released I'll go to a Camp Logos and learn how to use it better and more efficiently. I can't see wasting my time or money until the Mac version is completed.

Posts 1228
Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 11:49 AM

Dominick Sela:

Since the "silent majority" doesn't say much too often, I'll chip in my .02 and say I agree with everything Bob said 100%.  I have had great experiences with Gmail managing my email, and I had terrible experiences with Outlook on my own PC despite my own feeble efforts to backup, problem diagnose, change computers, etc. etc. On Cloud data, I am probably right i n between Bob's loathing/using of it <g> and the serious Facebook/Flickr crowd.

I can still back up all my stuff, and I do, daily, full bare metal backup. I run RAID 1 disks to increase the chances I won't have a hard drive failure that kills me. I monitor error events on my computer. But I still like and prefer that professionals are protecting my data, as I too am a IT professional and I know the difference, and they will do it better over time. Because 1 day 3 things will go wrong at once on my computer, when I have to be somewhere, or do something, and the bottom line is I will be hosed despite all my precautions. 

Rock on Bob.

+1

I too am an IT professional and I too am 100% happy with L4, cloud and all.  I also agree with 100% of what Bob has said.

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:19 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Logos was a desktop only app, and it's moving towards being a cloud app. It isn't there yet, and may be a hybrid for a long time, or even forever.

I suspect that Logos will follow the way the computer industry as a whole goes. If Bob is right, the day will come when PC's lack a hard disk and all storage is offline. In that case, we'll call Bob a visionary and praise him for anticipating the situation and getting Logos4/5/6 etc ready for it.

Providing Logos4/5/6 (etc) does not prematurely discontinue storage of resources and user data on the local PC then there is no harm in being ready for this. However, if the scenario goes the way I and others see it - the Cloud becoming yet another data storage option rather than a total replacement for local storage then I hope that Logos will remain a hybrid for ever.

I suspect Cloud providers are trying to commoditize the Internet, but we have to factor in that if they succeed it could put a huge number of hardware (specifically, hard disk) manufacturers out of business. Somehow I don't see it happening. There is a symbiotic relationship between hardware and operating system manufacturers - 'improvements' on one side lead to 'improvements' on the other side and so 'progress' continues, causing people like you and me to keep upgrading (i.e. spending) even when our current computers actually did what we needed. I don't think that Microsoft will want to alienate hardware manufacturers as it is in their interest to keep them in business - especially as solid state disks haven't become a standard yet - and cash cows just have to be milked.

I don't disagree with Logos using the Cloud. I think it is premature to commit to 'Cloud only' and I now appreciate that Bob feels that way too. As Bob's post indicates, Cloud support has added some possibly complex scenarios, especially if a user chooses to not use it or to disable some of it. But that, I am afraid, is life.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:29 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Russ White:
Then give us a way to store notes outside the application, so we can use just the resources, and nothing else.

Will this work?

Nothing like a little sarcasm to make fun of people who take privacy and data ownership seriously. Thanks.

Russ

 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:43 PM

Andy Bell:
I don't disagree with Logos using the Cloud. I think it is premature to commit to 'Cloud only' and I now appreciate that Bob feels that way too. As Bob's post indicates, Cloud support has added some possibly complex scenarios, especially if a user chooses to not use it or to disable some of it. But that, I am afraid, is life.

The first key is flexibility. If the software can both live locally, and live on the cloud, then you have all your bases covered. If you can only live on the cloud, then you're just another dead company if the cloud really doesn't take off. I've seen a lot of companies go that way... Major companies, who were totally bought into a big new move in the computing industry, and died because the market didn't move the way they thought it would.

The second key is to understand the social cycle. I'm deeply involved in many aspects of security in my "day job" as a network engineer, and there's a definite backlash developing against the uncontrolled information flow we have today. If Logos gets caught in that backlash, then it's a major problem. In fact, I just spent the afternoon installing Logos 4 on a Seminary professor's laptop--we went through the first steps of his install, and then he asked about his second laptop. I explained if he installed the software in both places, it would synch across... "But does that mean my notes are being stored someplace on Logos' servers?" Boom, right to the point. I could send you article after article, and give example after example--people are starting to see what "storing data on the cloud" means, and the younger generation, the one that's tech savvy, is starting to "get it."

The third key is to understand that one of the key tenants of the entire cloud computing "push" is along the "object orientation" in the programming world of the 1980's and 90's. The idea is to merge the data and the software, so the two are, essentially, inseparable. The end user, in the cloud world, can't tell when he's in one piece of software vs another piece, it's just data, and there are various data manipulation tools out there he can use. Software, in essence, disappears. It's all about content, not tools. This is a service provider play to remain relevant; if software is the key, the network is plumbing. If content is key, the network is the platform (see cisco's web site, for instance). However, there is a healthy balance between content orientation and software orientation. Right now, we're on the pendulum swinging towards content. In five years or less, it will swing back. It would be a shame if Logos were crushed in the swing back simply to save some support costs.

Again,back to the first key: flexibility.

Russ

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:43 PM

As another IT professional, I find the use of Gmail as an example of cloud computing to be a good model for Logos to follow. I can choose store my data in the cloud, or I can download it to my computer and take personal responsibility for it.

The possibility of Logos being anything but a hybrid puts tremendous fear of buying more resources from them. I rely quite a bit on my iPad Logos App, but the other day the cloud was broken and I was left without it. Another time, no internet access and the offline books wouldn't load.

I have L4 loaded on three different computers at my house. one stable, and two betas but if the Logos "Cloud" were to go dark and Logos was NOT a hybrid, they would all be useless. GMail fails and there are times their cloud isn't available, Google has more resources and more technical expertise to draw on than Logos will ever come close to and they fail. Why should we think that Logos will not do differently. Unless the product has the option of remaining a hybrid, I will have no recourse.

Personally, privacy is not my main concern, reliability is.

 

 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:47 PM

Russ White:

Nothing like a little sarcasm to make fun of people who take privacy and data ownership seriously. Thanks.

I'm sorry Russ. I did not mean to belittle or attack you personally. I was just trying to put a smile on the whole issue. With the repetitive nature of these threads on this subject I should have prefaced the post with that Flying Circus intro, "And now for something completely different..."

I believe it has all been said. But that pic is funny, isn't it? Stick out tongue I got it from an IT site that was addressing "privacy" concerns and our over-obsession with security.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 82
James Ng | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:48 PM

Never mind. Crossposted.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 1:09 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Russ White:

Nothing like a little sarcasm to make fun of people who take privacy and data ownership seriously. Thanks.

I'm sorry Russ. I did not mean to belittle or attack you personally. I was just trying to put a smile on the whole issue. With the repetitive nature of these threads on this subject I should have prefaced the post with that Flying Circus intro, "And now for something completely different..."

It's fine... I understand the frustration with all the threads...

:-)

Russ

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 1:15 PM

Russ White:

It's fine... I understand the frustration with all the threads...

 

fwiw: I am on record as agreeable to having an "export to local backup" option. I would even use it. And I did not start off with that opinion but was won over to it after MUCH persuasion.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 1:38 PM

Terry Poperszky:
Personally, privacy is not my main concern, reliability is.

I think Terry has made a valid case here. I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Logos should commit to providing local resource/data storage for as long as the OS and hardware support it. Or to always provide a version that can access local data, even if it's a lite version. I suppose we could add that Logos has said we own the resources. That could have a bearing on my right to access them locally, but that may be overstating the case.

Personally, I am pretty relaxed about what the future holds. I can't envision Logos unilaterally pulling the plug on local storage while it remains a normal feature of personal computers. But reassurance from the top is always welcome...

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 2:05 PM

Terry Poperszky:
but if the Logos "Cloud" were to go dark and Logos was NOT a hybrid, they would all be useless.

 

Terry,

How is this statement true brother?

Useless?

That's the word?

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 2:08 PM

Andy Bell:
I think Terry has made a valid case here. I'm beginning to be of the opinion that Logos should commit to providing local resource/data storage for as long as the OS and hardware support it.

 

Andy...

do me a favor.

close logos

disable your internet signal or cable.

restart Logos using the "CTRL +click" mode....

 

Are you still able to use logos?

Did it become useless? (to quote my brother Terry)

 

Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 3:37 PM

Robert Pavich:

Terry Poperszky:
but if the Logos "Cloud" were to go dark and Logos was NOT a hybrid, they would all be useless.

 

Terry,

How is this statement true brother?

Useless?

That's the word?

Robert, as Logos stands today it is not truly a cloud architecture, it isn't even really a hybrid yet. Things sync through the cloud, I can restore from the cloud, but when I use it, I am using the resources that reside on my computer only. If the cloud went away, I would be affected very little. Contrast that with the iPad app, while I can download some resources, when I choose to do most things they happen in the cloud and the results show on my device. When Logos had their little problem the other day, it showed up in L4 as an inability to sync, but it showed up in the iPad as a complete loss of functionality. The Logos cloud broke, and both my iPhone and iPad were affected. If Bob's vision of a truly cloud based Logos happens (Not a hybrid, but cloud only) and the Logos cloud broke, then my investment would at that point be useless (at least for the duration of the outage).

Does what I said make more sense now? I am not talking about Logos today, I am talking about Logos as a totally cloud based application which Bob said was a possibility.

 

 

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