Data bug: Parables dataset

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 4 2019 9:06 AM

After doing a search in All Bible Text in New Testament in Top Bibles for {label Parables]

I get a list of many parables from Matthew into Romans, but the parables in Matthew did not include the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31 ff).

Was this omission an oversight, or is Logos telling us something subtle?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 2:53 PM

In my 4 resources on Parables, the Sheep and Goats is not included! All my English bibles with pericopes do not distinguish it as a parable, unlike the first two in Mt 25 - it is usually called "The judgement..." or "The Sheep and the Goats" (Greek UBS4 likewise).

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 3:06 PM

Jack Hairston:
the parables in Matthew did not include the Sheep and Goats (Matthew 25:31 ff).

Well, Hultgren writes in his commentary on the parables:

The unit is not truly a parable. It is actually an apocalyptic discourse with a parabolic element in 25:32b–33—the simile of a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. Yet it is often called (even if miscalled) “The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats” or “The Parable of the Last Judgment,” and exegesis of it is commonly included in studies of the parables of Jesus.2


2 J. Jeremias, Parables, 206–10; R. Stein, Parables, 131–40; P. Perkins, Parables, 158–65; J. Donahue, Parable, 109–25; Jan Lambrecht, Astonished, 196–235; idem, Treasure, 249–84. Discussion of it is not included in the works of A. Jülicher, B. T. D. Smith, C. H. Dodd, E. Linnemann, and B. Scott.

 

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 3:17 PM

Why can't it be both a parable and a "pronouncement"? I also think it should be included in the parables dataset. "sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable NEAR matthew" gives 130 hits in my library.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 4:33 PM

Jan Krohn:

Why can't it be both a parable and a "pronouncement"? I also think it should be included in the parables dataset. "sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable NEAR matthew" gives 130 hits in my library.

My hits for it include one from the Lexham Bible Dictionary.

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 4:37 PM

Dave Hooton:

In my 4 resources on Parables, the Sheep and Goats is not included! All my English bibles with pericopes do not distinguish it as a parable, unlike the first two in Mt 25 - it is usually called "The judgement..." or "The Sheep and the Goats" (Greek UBS4 likewise).

Hmmm. If it is NOT a parable, does that mean that Jesus was talking about the salvation (or not) of actual sheep and goats? [duck and run]

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 4:55 PM

Jan Krohn:
"sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable NEAR matthew" gives 130 hits in my library.

How many resources? sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable is in 42 of my resources (186 hits). But some discuss whether it is a parable, and "parable" in some doesn't apply to "Sheep and goats" just because it is NEAR!

Lexham Bible Dictionary believes it is a parable, but the pericope in Lexham English Bible states it is a Judgement!

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 5:06 PM

Jack Hairston:
If it is NOT a parable, does that mean that Jesus was talking about the salvation (or not) of actual sheep and goats? [duck and run]

v32 provides the analogy, but it doesn't mention ducksBig Smile

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 5:14 PM

Dave Hooton:

Jan Krohn:
"sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable NEAR matthew" gives 130 hits in my library.

How many resources? sheep NEAR goats NEAR parable is in 42 of my resources (186 hits). But some discuss whether it is a parable, and "parable" in some doesn't apply to "Sheep and goats" just because it is NEAR!

Lexham Bible Dictionary believes it is a parable, but the pericope in Lexham English Bible states it is a Judgement!

29 resources. Here are some of the ones that unequivocally identify it as parable (including some notable scholars and authors):

Brazier, P. H. C. S. Lewis—Revelation, Conversion, and Apologetics. Bd. 1. C. S. Lewis: Revelation and the Christ. Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications, 2012.

Mitchell, Leonel L. Praying Shapes Believing: A Theological Commentary on The Book of Common Prayer. New York; Harrisburg, PA; Denver: Morehouse Publishing, 1985.

Deppe, Dean B. All Roads Lead to the Text: Eight Methods of Inquiry into the Bible. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2011.

Ponsonby, Simon. And the lamb wins: why the end of the world is really good news. Colorado Springs, CO: David C. Cook, 2010.

Elwell, Walter A., und Barry J. Beitzel. „Parable“. Baker encyclopedia of the Bible. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988.

Kreeft, Peter J. Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2008.

Knowles, Andrew. The Bible guide. 1st Augsburg books ed. Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg, 2001.

Stump, J. B. „Science and Theology“. Herausgegeben von Paul Copan, Tremper Longman III, Christopher L. Reese, und Michael G. Strauss. Dictionary of Christianity and Science: The Definitive Reference for the Intersection of Christian Faith and Contemporary Science. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2017.

Samson, Will. Enough: contentment in an age of excess. Colorado Springs, CO: David C. Cook, 2011.

Carson, D. A. For the love of God: a daily companion for discovering the riches of God’s Word. Bd. 1. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1998.

Got Questions Ministries. Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2002–2013.

Brown, Michael L. Hyper grace: exposing the dangers of the modern grace message. Lake Mary, FL: Charisma House, 2014.

Keener, Craig S. Matthew. Bd. 1. The IVP New Testament Commentary Series. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997.

Markos, Louis. Lewis agonistes: how c.s. lewis can train us to wrestle with the modern and postmodern world. Nashville: B&H Books, 2003.

Green, Michael. The message of Matthew: the kingdom of heaven. The Bible Speaks Today. Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001.

Boice, James Montgomery. Psalms 1–41: An Expositional Commentary. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2005.

Pearson, Glenn. That’s a great question: what to say when your faith is questioned. Colorado Springs, CO: David C. Cook, 2010.

Lomas, David, D. R. Jacobsen, und Francis Chan. The truest thing about you: identity, desire, and why it all matters. Colorado Springs, CO: David C Cook, 2014.

Yancey, Philip. Where is god when it hurts?. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2010.

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 5:22 PM

Dave Hooton:

Jack Hairston:
If it is NOT a parable, does that mean that Jesus was talking about the salvation (or not) of actual sheep and goats? [duck and run]

v32 provides the analogy, but it doesn't mention ducksBig Smile

Good one, Dave.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 6:11 PM

Jan Krohn:
Here are some of the ones that unequivocally identify it as parable (including some notable scholars and authors):

I did say that "some" questioned its merit; whether notable scholars I can't comment. But all my Bibles with pericopes (19) don't call it a parable e.g. CSB, ESV, GNT, HCSB, MEV, LEB, NET, NABRE, NIV, NASB95, NRSV. So scholars appear to be divided. I make no comment of my own.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 8:30 PM

Jack Hairston:
If it is NOT a parable, does that mean that Jesus was talking about the salvation (or not) of actual sheep and goats? [duck and run]

There are other figurative uses of language besides parables ... the definition of parable varies a fair amount between scholars. So, to answer your question, I need your definition of "parable".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 10:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

Jack Hairston:
If it is NOT a parable, does that mean that Jesus was talking about the salvation (or not) of actual sheep and goats? [duck and run]

There are other figurative uses of language besides parables ... the definition of parable varies a fair amount between scholars. So, to answer your question, I need your definition of "parable".

Parables usually have two elements in common.  Comparison (like,as) about a spiritual subject , and a familiar event that the audience understands. Judgment is like a shepherd separating sheep and goats. 

Is there any reason why this should not be considered a parable? 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 11:59 PM

Jack Hairston:
Is there any reason why this should not be considered a parable? 

Logos concentrated on a definition that requires narrative:

. . .it is possible to talk about two basic types of parables: proverbial parables and narrative parables. The former of these constitute aphorisms and similies—figurative statements with some sort of insight or clever witticism. The Greek word that is translated as “parable” is often used for these. However, since proverbial parables are usually better described simply as proverbs, the focus on this dataset is the latter type: narrative parables. These are effectively stories that are purposefully presented by their speaker to teach, promise, rebuke, or even warn their intended audience. This is a narrower use of the term parable, but it also fits better with the more conventional understanding of term.

Michael Aubrey, Parables of the Bible: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2016).

I suspect that "they" analysed it as a parabolic element in an apocalyptic passage which strikes me as reasonable, perhaps because I am not used t o seeing it labeled a parable (see https://catholicworld.wordpress.com/scripture/parables-list-of/). I fear someone from FL has to speak out with a definitive answer.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 12:19 AM

MJ. Smith:
I suspect that "they" analysed it as a parabolic element in an apocalyptic passage which strikes me as reasonable, perhaps because I am not used t o seeing it labeled a parable (see https://catholicworld.wordpress.com/scripture/parables-list-of/).

Peter Kreeft considers it a parable. Even Roman Catholicism seems divided on the issue.

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Jack Hairston | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 6:33 AM

MJ. Smith:

Jack Hairston:
Is there any reason why this should not be considered a parable? 

Logos concentrated on a definition that requires narrative:

Michael Aubrey, Parables of the Bible: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2016).

My study of the Bible is driven by the motive to know and understand. Thanks for scratching that itch, MJ.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 7:07 AM

Jan Krohn:

MJ. Smith:
I suspect that "they" analysed it as a parabolic element in an apocalyptic passage which strikes me as reasonable, perhaps because I am not used t o seeing it labeled a parable (see https://catholicworld.wordpress.com/scripture/parables-list-of/).

Peter Kreeft considers it a parable. Even Roman Catholicism seems divided on the issue.

I wouldn't consider it accurate to say* that Catholics are "divided" on the issue. Some Catholics may consider it one thing, some another, and some may call it a parable because the word "parable" is familiar to their non-specialist audience or because they themselves have never thought about it before and/or heard it called a parable by somebody else. It's not a matter of doctrine or even of discipline, at least from a Catholic perspective.

*"Roman Catholicism" isn't really a thing, either.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 2:33 PM

Jan Krohn:
Peter Kreeft considers it a parable. Even Roman Catholicism seems divided on the issue.

To me, it's not a matter of correct/incorrect or denominational preference - it's a matter of knowing what is meant by Faithlife labels ... a matter that has come to obsess me as I document the system behavior.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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