TDOT & TDNT

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This post has 26 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 193
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Mar 6 2019 12:15 AM

I realize these resources are quite dated, which is the reason I have never spent the $$ on them inasmuch as I already have standard works such as BDAG, HALOT, NIDNTTE, NIDOTTE, UBS, etc.  

But, I just picked up the 15 volumed TDOT last night for a mere $99, and, I must say that I am really enjoying it so far.  I’m currently taking Hebrew 1 so I thought it might come in handy.  And, I do still see these works referenced in various grammars, commentary‘s, etc.

Your thoughts?  Are these works still relevant for lexicography or are they considered obsolete?

I would ask the same thing regarding A.T. Robertson’s mammoth work “A Grammar of the Greek NT in the Light of Historical Research.”  My Greek prof. says that he thinks it’s still relevant.  Just wondering about the consensus of those more learned in original languages than myself (though I am working on it 😉).

Posts 2236
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 7:39 PM

Truth doesn't have a date expiration stamp. There may be some newer aspects of linguistics but theology isn't subject to fashion.trends despite some people's tendency to think there might be,

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 450
Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 7:53 PM

I think the main criticism of TDOT/NT is not that they are out of date but that they tend to imbue too much theological freight into words.

Posts 294
Mathew Voth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 9:58 PM

It should be noted that while the TDNT is often criticized, and is not aging well, this is not the case with the TDOT. The latter is held in high esteem within biblical studies. 

Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 11:07 PM

Dave Moser:

I think the main criticism of TDOT/NT is not that they are out of date but that they tend to imbue too much theological freight into words.

When I read this, I didn't know whether to laugh or shake my head. I did both.

Posts 492
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 11:21 PM

Dave Moser:
but that they tend to imbue too much theological freight into words

Wouldnt this be expected of a dictionary called the "Theological Dictionary of Old/New Testament"? Not trying to be cute here, but I would imagine that is the point of this kind of resource, right?

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Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 11:24 PM

Richard Villanueva:

Dave Moser:
but that they tend to imbue too much theological freight into words

Wouldnt this be expected of a dictionary called the "Theological Dictionary of Old/New Testament"? Not trying to be cute here, but I would imagine that is the point of this kind of resource, right?

Idea

Posts 492
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 11:26 PM

David Paul:

Idea

My mother always told me I was pretty smart. Maybe she is right, after all. Wink

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Posts 193
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 11:30 PM

Mathew Voth:
It should be noted that while the TDNT is often criticized, and is not aging well, this is not the case with the TDOT. The latter is held in high esteem within biblical studies. 

Good point.  Due to BDAG & Oxyrhincus I suspected this.  Think I’ll pass on the TDNT inasmuch as I already have virtually every NT lexicon on the market, but really wanted to beef up my OT resources...and couldn’t pass up an almost 90% discount 😳!

Posts 10114
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 4:33 AM

Puddin’:

Mathew Voth:
It should be noted that while the TDNT is often criticized, and is not aging well, this is not the case with the TDOT. The latter is held in high esteem within biblical studies. 

Good point.  Due to BDAG & Oxyrhincus I suspected this.  Think I’ll pass on the TDNT inasmuch as I already have virtually every NT lexicon on the market, but really wanted to beef up my OT resources...and couldn’t pass up an almost 90% discount 😳!

Puddin', you got so many cars, why buy a truck? Theological dictionaries exist, because simpleton BDAGs copy from previous editions, just enough to remain affordable. 

Skipping TDNT might be valid due to issues earlier in its history, but it's constantly cited, and not particularly expensive; often on sale.


Posts 3155
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 5:32 AM

Can I ask where you got it for $99? I'm assuming a competitor?

Posts 900
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:29 AM

Mattillo:

Can I ask where you got it for $99? I'm assuming a competitor?

I don't think we're meant to point people to where, but you can assume a competitor. I picked up a 14 volume NT commentary set for $39.99 in their Beat the Clock sale. They're not as good as Logos, but prices like that are hard to turn down. Especially when I had 2 of the volumes in my wishlist at $45.98.

Posts 3155
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:40 AM

Paul Caneparo:

Mattillo:

Can I ask where you got it for $99? I'm assuming a competitor?

I don't think we're meant to point people to where, but you can assume a competitor. I picked up a 14 volume NT commentary set for $39.99 in their Beat the Clock sale. They're not as good as Logos, but prices like that are hard to turn down. Especially when I had 2 of the volumes in my wishlist at $45.98.

No worries Paul. I wish Logos could get sales like this but I'll patiently wait and hope

Posts 6315
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:47 AM

Mattillo:

Paul Caneparo:

Mattillo:

Can I ask where you got it for $99? I'm assuming a competitor?

I don't think we're meant to point people to where, but you can assume a competitor. I picked up a 14 volume NT commentary set for $39.99 in their Beat the Clock sale. They're not as good as Logos, but prices like that are hard to turn down. Especially when I had 2 of the volumes in my wishlist at $45.98.

No worries Paul. I wish Logos could get sales like this but I'll patiently wait and hope

Maybe it was his dynamic price for the Academic Professional Package. Mine is just a little over $200, but some have bought it for $120

DAL

Posts 450
Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:48 AM

Richard Villanueva:

Wouldnt this be expected of a dictionary called the "Theological Dictionary of Old/New Testament"? Not trying to be cute here, but I would imagine that is the point of this kind of resource, right?

The OP's original question was about the usefulness of these resources for lexicography.

And I replied to that narrow question: The common criticism is that these resources go beyond lexicography in that they don't simply "recognize" a word's definition or even its theological content, but incorporate too much of its surrounding theological context that properly belong to other words. I chose the word "imbue" with care.

If you have Carson's Exegetical Fallacies, check his "Common Fallacies in Semantics" section. Errors 7, 8, and especially 13 are what people are referring to when they criticize it.

I'd also like to note that I didn't give my own evaluation of this argument, just alerted him to that it's a common critique. Even if valid, the argument doesn't make the resources "bad," just not entirely aimed at lexical work.

These resources are indeed valuable, but many people believe they have deficiencies in lexicography - which was the original question.

Posts 900
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:55 AM

DAL:

Mattillo:

Paul Caneparo:

Mattillo:

Can I ask where you got it for $99? I'm assuming a competitor?

I don't think we're meant to point people to where, but you can assume a competitor. I picked up a 14 volume NT commentary set for $39.99 in their Beat the Clock sale. They're not as good as Logos, but prices like that are hard to turn down. Especially when I had 2 of the volumes in my wishlist at $45.98.

No worries Paul. I wish Logos could get sales like this but I'll patiently wait and hope

Maybe it was his dynamic price for the Academic Professional Package. Mine is just a little over $200, but some have bought it for $120

DAL

It was a competitor's sale 2 days ago.

Posts 1822
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 8:21 AM

Puddin’:
But, I just picked up the 15 volumed TDOT last night for a mere $99, and, I must say that I am really enjoying it so far.

While I can't find this price in Logos, Those who are interested in it should checkout the Logos 8 Academic Professional Bundle. I can get the whole bundle for just about 50% of this resource alone.

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Posts 599
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 8:48 AM

So did I. And with dynamic pricing I got the rest of the ICC for a very small amount, not to mention a number of other treasures. The Academic Professional package can be a tremendously good deal!

Posts 165
Clifford B. Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 11:12 AM

David Thomas:

Puddin’:
But, I just picked up the 15 volumed TDOT last night for a mere $99, and, I must say that I am really enjoying it so far.

While I can't find this price in Logos, Those who are interested in it should checkout the Logos 8 Academic Professional Bundle. I can get the whole bundle for just about 50% of this resource alone.

That's how I picked up TDOT as well. I got it, and the rest of the L8 Academic Professional Bundle for just over $100.

Cliff

Posts 6315
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 12:11 PM

Maybe OT was the competitor, because Accordance and WORDsearch have never offered it for that low price.

DAL

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