Payment plan real world costs

I am considering an upgrade from Logos 7 to 8 at the least possible cost. The “Dynamic Sale price” for a Logos 8 Starter discounted upgrade for me is:

A purchase price of $106.51

$20.21 a month for 6 months with $20.25 down for a total of $141.51

Now go to https://www.calculator.net/interest-rate-calculator.html

Type in 85.96 for the loan amount (106.51-20.25)

Type in 0.5 (years) for the loan period.

Type in 20.21 for the payment

The interest rate is 129%

(Note: If you add on the $5/month service fee from the Payment Plan FAQ, the effective interest rate is 228% and the final cost would be $171.51 for the initial $106.51 purchase)

Please update your FAQ to assist users who aren’t good in math and budgeting to let them know what the payment program really charges.

Sincerely,

Mark

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Graham Criddle

Hi Mark - and welcome to the forums

I am considering an upgrade from Logos 7 to 8 at the least possible cost. The “Dynamic Sale price” for a Logos 8 Starter discounted upgrade for me is:

A purchase price of $106.51

Please be aware that you can upgrade to Logos 8 using Logos 8 Basic for free - it is available at https://www.logos.com/product/168880/logos-8-basic

Please update your FAQ to assist users who aren’t good in math and budgeting to let them know what the payment program really charges.

And while someone from Faithlife may see this and respond these forums are primarily used by other customers.

You might want to send a message to their sales team - contact details are at https://www.logos.com/contact

Graham

Randy W. Sims

The “Dynamic Sale price” for a Logos 8 Starter discounted upgrade for me is:

A purchase price of $106.51

Or

$20.21 a month for 6 months with $20.25 down for a total of $141.51

(Note: If you add on the $5/month service fee from the Payment Plan FAQ, the effective interest rate is 228% and the final cost would be $171.51 for the initial $106.51 purchase)

The $141.51 includes the $5 service fee. There is no interest charged. The only fee is the $5 transaction fee on each payment. For some amounts it does seem high. But it can be very convenient.

Mark Widrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038493#Comment_1038493

Thanks Graham!

I didn't realize the $5 fee was included in the quoted cost. The FAQ isn't clear on that. I'm still then confused by an effective interest rate of 129%. I realize it's not "interest" but charging it to a credit card at 30% interest would still be a much better value.

Maybe adding a "for a total payment cost of $141.51" on the sales page would be helpful for someone not good at math.

Mark Widrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038492#Comment_1038492

Thank you Graham for the link!

I couldn't quite wrap my head around the reason for the appearance of usury. The post from Randy above noted it's just the $5/month fee.

I couldn't find the link for the Logos 8 Basic no matter how hard I searched.

The email I received from Sales asked if I wanted to upgrade but never intimated that the Basic version was available to existing customers.

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Sincerely,

Mark

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038497#Comment_1038497

I'm still then confused by an effective interest rate of 129%. I realize it's not "interest" but charging it to a credit card at 30% interest would still be a much better value.

It becomes better value for higher-priced purchases when the $5 monthly fee is a smaller percentage of the total cost.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038499#Comment_1038499

Thank you Graham for the link!

You are very welcome. Enjoy....

Sean

I only buy packages towards the lower end of the scale, silver or lower (plus gold one time when I got really good dynamic pricing). At those levels, it's always worked out better to stick it on my credit card and pay it off on my terms. Logos payment plans are a better deal only at the higher levels. You just have to calculate the total service fee versus the total interest you'd be paying over your planned CC term. It's a nice service they offer but not for every situation.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038499#Comment_1038499

The email I received from Sales asked if I wanted to upgrade but never intimated that the Basic version was available to existing customers

There's two mysteries that swirl around Faithlife.

1. They really can not communicate. For years, some sincerely believed that it was to save money, or concentrate on the software. But after observing them for a decade-plus, the general conclusion surrounds a corporate policy. More talk = more trouble.

2. They play Christian-company, but the gloves come off in marketing. I laughed at your email experience. That's typical. I quickly thought about my own experience last week evaluating March Madness ... what is an actual sale, and what is a Faithlife sale.

The irony, in both instances, is that neither are good business. My other other advertisers constantly highlight anything free, or a real sale. They want my car in their parking lot. And I dutifully oblige ... I'm no dummy. But with Logos, everything has to be carefully checked.

David Paul

Any time you break a payment into a larger number of increments, it is probably going to increase the overall cost on a percentage basis. That stands to reason. But you should consider that a person is not required to break the payment into six payments...that's just the max allowed for a purchase that size. If the total amount is uncomfortable for a single payment, you can arrange to pay it off in 2-6 increments. Obviously, the quicker the better, but for some the smallest monthly payment is the only way they can make the purchase. Considering that the only other option is not getting the resources at all, the additional amount may not be considered "a bad deal" for some purchasers.

Wait, why is my post count back to ZERO...AGAIN?

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038514#Comment_1038514

In the UK this model of charging would be considered unethical, but i get the impression that it is not seen as such in the USA.

The moral of the story is do not use a payment plan unless you understand the net cash-flows.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038500#Comment_1038500

It becomes better value for higher-priced purchases when the $5 monthly fee is a smaller percentage of the total cost.

This is critical to remember.

Buying Gold for $1,549 on a payment plan is equivalent to an 'interest rate' of about 7%. That's pretty good value. Buying Collector's on a Payment Plan is equivalent to a 1% interest rate.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038497#Comment_1038497

I'm still then confused by an effective interest rate of 129%.

Wouldn't it be 29% (interest), not 129% (principal plus interest)?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038538#Comment_1038538

I'm still then confused by an effective interest rate of 129%.

Wouldn't it be 29% (interest), not 129% (principal plus interest)?

Petah, without doing the exact equation, ignoring if 'interest' and illustrating, compare the extra paid, to the average loan balance (only half outstanding on average), allow a little for compounding, and annualize the rate. Pretty hefty.

Not said above, but Bob says the add-on charge is breakeven ... FL doesn't make money on it.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038538#Comment_1038538

I'm still then confused by an effective interest rate of 129%.

Wouldn't it be 29% (interest), not 129% (principal plus interest)?

no it is 129%, think of it as a $106 loan for 3 months (I.e. six months but on average half is due) after which you pay $35 interest, so for a year it would be $140 interest which taking interest on interest into account is around 129%.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038537#Comment_1038537

It becomes better value for higher-priced purchases when the $5 monthly fee is a smaller percentage of the total cost.

This is critical to remember.

Buying Gold for $1,549 on a payment plan is equivalent to an 'interest rate' of about 7%. That's pretty good value. Buying Collector's on a Payment Plan is equivalent to a 1% interest rate.

I'm not disagreeing. But after I saw your point, and Bob said cost-covering, clearly the big-boy-purchasers get a great deal. If Bob is looking at total payment program costs, then the little-guys are paying for the big-boys. Though in Bob-logic, that may be the plan.

Daniel Radke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038548#Comment_1038548

Not said above, but Bob says the add-on charge is breakeven ... FL doesn't make money on it.

Can someone point to a place where Bob said this? Was it said a long time ago?

I can understand that when Logos introduced the $5/mo payment plan fee, it probably was a break-even for them. Someone likely had to manually go in each month and process the sale. But, I would be shocked if this process isn't now automated. So, why is there still a $5/mo charge?

I know this is a hard, direct question, and perhaps I've missed a recent discussion, but I think it is fair to ask.

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038557#Comment_1038557

I can understand that when Logos introduced the $5/mo payment plan fee, it probably was a break-even for them. Someone likely had to manually go in each month and process the sale. But, I would be shocked if this process isn't now automated. So, why is there still a $5/mo charge?

Extra Costs:

Credit card transactions cost companies around 3-5% per transaction to run (credit or debit).
While the system is automated there are other issues like when a transaction does not go through because of insufficient funds or expired card which has to be handed over to a person.
Merging payment plans has to be done by a person.
Refunds have to be done by a person and cost because of the credit card transaction.
Customer asks for a grace period, skip a month, requires employee time.
I have no idea what it costs if someone can no longer continue a payment plan and has to surrender. Depends on time. Not sure what publishers would demand in those cases.
You can also look at the $5 per transaction as a disincentive to people wanting to use payment plans on small purchases. Every purchase is a risk. And small ones aren't worth it.

Daniel Radke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038562#Comment_1038562

I can understand that when Logos introduced the $5/mo payment plan fee, it probably was a break-even for them. Someone likely had to manually go in each month and process the sale. But, I would be shocked if this process isn't now automated. So, why is there still a $5/mo charge?

Extra Costs:

Credit card transactions cost companies around 3-5% per transaction to run (credit or debit).

While the system is automated there are other issues like when a transaction does not go through because of insufficient funds or expired card which has to be handed over to a person.

Merging payment plans has to be done by a person.

Refunds have to be done by a person and cost because of the credit card transaction.

Customer asks for a grace period, skip a month, requires employee time.

I have no idea what it costs if someone can no longer continue a payment plan and has to surrender. Depends on time. Not sure what publishers would demand in those cases.

You can also look at the $5 per transaction as a disincentive to people wanting to use payment plans on small purchases. Every purchase is a risk. And small ones aren't worth it.

Insightful. I hadn't considered these scenarios. Thank you for shedding some light on this.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038557#Comment_1038557

Not said above, but Bob says the add-on charge is breakeven ... FL doesn't make money on it.

Can someone point to a place where Bob said this? Was it said a long time ago?

I can understand that when Logos introduced the $5/mo payment plan fee, it probably was a break-even for them. Someone likely had to manually go in each month and process the sale. But, I would be shocked if this process isn't now automated. So, why is there still a $5/mo charge?

I know this is a hard, direct question, and perhaps I've missed a recent discussion, but I think it is fair to ask.

Adding to Randy, this page (scroll down) has a lot of Bob's thinking:

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/118786.aspx?PageIndex=2

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038551#Comment_1038551

Ah, you're talking about APR. I understand now. Thank you, Mike and Denise!

Yikes, at that rate!

Two things to note about FL payment plans.

You can pay off your balance early without any penalty, saving yourself any remaining monthly service fees.
You can combine payment plans, to avoid paying more than one service fee per month.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038522#Comment_1038522

In the UK this model of charging would be considered unethical, but i get the impression that it is not seen as such in the USA.

The moral of the story is do not use a payment plan unless you understand the net cash-flows.

Yes, understand the cass-flows!

On many bills [here in the US] there is a monthly customer change just for being a customer, offen in the $5 range. In the days of doing it all by snail mail it cost that much to: print the bill, put the bill in an envelope, mail the bill, receive the payment, and record the payment.

So, when they started this, Logos just added a monthly customer charge to the bill. And Yes, it is a high interest rate. My electric customer charge is 10% of my electric bill [for 180 kWh].

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038512#Comment_1038512

The email I received from Sales asked if I wanted to upgrade but never intimated that the Basic version was available to existing customers

There's two mysteries that swirl around Faithlife.

1. They really can not communicate. For years, some sincerely believed that it was to save money, or concentrate on the software. But after observing them for a decade-plus, the general conclusion surrounds a corporate policy. More talk = more trouble.

2. They play Christian-company, but the gloves come off in marketing. I laughed at your email experience. That's typical. I quickly thought about my own experience last week evaluating March Madness ... what is an actual sale, and what is a Faithlife sale.

The irony, in both instances, is that neither are good business. My other other advertisers constantly highlight anything free, or a real sale. They want my car in their parking lot. And I dutifully oblige ... I'm no dummy. But with Logos, everything has to be carefully checked.

Denise I don't want to badmouth Logos. Their software is really good. Their customer support does their best to help you. (At least they did with me).
But I have a genuine complaint about Logos, though to be fair, I assume it's the same with Accordance or any other. The prices are outrageous. Yes I understand they sell a lot of books to you at 90% or more off of each. But that's still too expensive for most people. Furthermore, 200-500 dollar feature-sets feel like robbery to me. That's just not fair. I'm not saying it's robbery. I'm saying it feels very userious. I don't understand why publishers cannot provide free access to more content when they are Christian. Spreading knowledge of the faith, and being able to defend it in our era, is very difficult, and all of these tools and resources are becoming increasingly necessary. There is no good free software, and public domain works and translations are largely useless today. Logos is "unable" to provide me any kind of complimentary access to anything at all other than their basic base packages, which aren't very good. I hear "unable" a lot. I've repeatedly asked them for access to more content as my claims of poverty are true. No I'm not impoverished. But my family is struggling to survive and I am crippled. I will likely die if I do not get monthly infusions at the hospital. Thankfully my crap insurance through social security disability pays for it. it's to the tune of 7 grand a month. All I want to be able to to is study the Bible on a serious, scholarly level. I don't care about life advice. I don't have the luxury of buying nice things, or rather, very rarely. Academic publishers in general, ARE thieves. They rob universities and the public of both money and knowledge.

We are "unable," we "can't." I acknowledge the truth of this. But why won't any corporations/companies try to change things for the masses? Please don't take me as a communist. I'm very far from that. We "can't" should be "we're working on a way to provide a lot (preferably ALL of it) of serious scholarship to us for free. The 22nd I get my next infusion, but faithlife connect essentials runs out on the 17th for me and its very unlikely i'll be able to renew it. So I won't be watching anything from faithlife at the hospital.

I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

No library will give me access to their databases. Neither will any university. There's an unbelievably massive trove of research which the public will never have access to, including stuff which is basically funded by tax dollars if its a public university.

It's this way: All of the tools and resources which matter for spreading and defending the faith are locked behind a paywall. We aren't talking cheap, we're talking completely unaffordable. I realize this has turned into a rant, but it's upsetting to me that Christian corporations do not act like actual Christians did in the first centuries, especially that since there's never been a time before this were we need an army of educated Christians. I mean seriously educated, not sunday school "here's how to be a nice boy" lessons.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039074#Comment_1039074

I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

Chris

Your post sort of hit a nerve for me since I got saved around the same age and wanted to get some schooling to serve my Lord. I managed to get a little bit but I never had the means to go to seminary. When I finally decided to do something about it, Logos looked a whole lot cheaper than seminary. After all, what do you do in seminary? You study books. What's in Logos? Books. In Logos, those books are often far cheaper than anywhere else especially in packages.

When I got my first Logos 4 package, I started with a payment plan. I could scarcely afford it. Right after getting it, I mentioned my decision to a friend. He paid for the whole package. And he kept right on helping me by paying for more resources.

If God wants you to have resources in Logos, He will provide for you.

Dave Thawley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1038574#Comment_1038574

I don't think 1 applies any more but 2 still does. Saying that after rereading bobs comments I personally don't mind. I like the flat fee structure rather than having an interest based structure. It does feel more christian and it does allow me to buy collections I couldn't possibly afford any other way.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039080#Comment_1039080

I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

Chris

Your post sort of hit a nerve for me since I got saved around the same age and wanted to get some schooling to serve my Lord. I managed to get a little bit but I never had the means to go to seminary. When I finally decided to do something about it, Logos looked a whole lot cheaper than seminary. After all, what do you do in seminary? You study books. What's in Logos? Books. In Logos, those books are often far cheaper than anywhere else especially in packages.

When I got my first Logos 4 package, I started with a payment plan. I could scarcely afford it. Right after getting it, I mentioned my decision to a friend. He paid for the whole package. And he kept right on helping me by paying for more resources.

If God wants you to have resources in Logos, He will provide for you.

I appreciate your feedback but I do not have a friend who can purchase me a large package. I do not share the attitude of "if God wants you to have". I don't mean to be rude, but that seems a rather strange statement to me. I'm NOT saying it is, but at first glance I took it as, maybe inappropriate in some way, I don't know. I don't think that's how it works. I'm not going to presume what God wants me to have. That sounds a little too close to prosperity preaching, though I realize it's not. I cannot afford a payment plan either. I have to beg friends for things, but I don't know anyone who would be willing to do that sadly. God wants me to serve him, that I know. I have been saved for a long while now, but over the recent years I've become much more serious about it. I may not live as long a life as the average person, and it's very possible a hurricane will nuke my house and I'll lose most of what I own. I wish I had someone to turn to for this, but I don't.. Part of my enjoyment in life, is doing research on scripture. I'm very thankful for Heiser's Naked Bible Podcast, for example. He keeps mentioning Logos, and it pains me to some extent. What I've used, is so very helpful. I've been writing lots of notes with the note tool recently.

I'm going to admit something here.. I do download books on the internet if I find them. I have to because I cannot afford them. But logos has plenty I can't find, and even ones I do find, I cannot use with logos' tools because they're not in my logos account. I would love nothing more than a large base package with the feature set but I don't imagine that will happen any time soon, if ever. I can study without it. But it makes it so much easier with it.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039074#Comment_1039074

The prices are outrageous. Yes I understand they sell a lot of books to you at 90% or more off of each. But that's still too expensive for most people.

At $35 per volume a full Bible Commentary set in hard copy would cost $2310.

At 90% off that would still be $231 for the digital copy.

But let’s go back to the good old days before Tablets, Smart Phones and even Computers. Who would buy at full Bible Commentary set? Not you nor me. The only people with access to those sets would be Library Members where the Library could afford a set. If the library had 1000 members the set would only cost $2.31 for each member. The publishers set their prices to sell to libraries with 1000 or more members.

Publishers are still setting prices at the per library price [$2310.00].

They give us a discount at 90% off [$231.00] and think that they are giving us a good deal.

What we want is the per member price [$2.31] as that is what each user paid back in the dead tree library user days. [or 99.9% off]

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039116#Comment_1039116

Those commentaries should never have been those prices to begin with.
I feel a bit dumb as I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only library in my area is junk. As a result, I haven't used it since I was a child.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039359#Comment_1039359

The only library in my area is junk

Where do you live that you library is not the portal into the inter-library loan system?

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039390#Comment_1039390

The only library in my area is junk

Where do you live that you library is not the portal into the inter-library loan system?

I'll PM you that.

edit:

There's no private message option. I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan. I'm going to go ahead and go there and see what's changed. But I will say that I live in a dumpster town, with literal trash on the streets, including beer cans and bottles people throw practically into my yard, people who I don't particularly like and many of whom don't feel the need to converse in English. Just a few days ago there was another shooting incident down the street. It didn't used to be a dumpster town. It used to be mostly cow pasture. You could leave your car unlocked if you were feeling lazy.
I CAN borrow from my former university's library if I pay them for a complimentary account, but I cannot use ILL much less the database. Libraries do not provide access to proquest dissertations, Jstor, etc, especially not from my own house.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039359#Comment_1039359

I feel a bit dumb as I'm not sure what you're talking about.

A) You are not dumb! Some private and school libraries with big $$$$$$. The ones that could afford to buy many $2000 sets of books. The ones that the publishers were selling those sets to before ePub came into being. [And no, I can not name any off the top of my head]

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039074#Comment_1039074

All I want to be able to to is study the Bible on a serious, scholarly level...Academic publishers in general, ARE thieves.

I will not presume your motives, but share 2 admonitions out of my experience and you can consider if they may relate to your situation or not.

1. Often what I WANT is not what I NEED. The Lord has promised to meet all my NEEDs according to His riches in glory. I frequently have to re-visit Scripture's teaching on contentment and submission to the will of God.

2. The Scholars who produce Academic works are worthy of their wages. This is both Old Covenant (Dt 25:4) and New Covenant (1 Tim 5:18) teaching. It is unreasonable for me to expect someone to labor to research, process ideas, write, edit and publish these resources for my consumption without receiving compensation.

I apologize in advance if this comes across as accusatory. That is NOT my intention! Having studied over 30 years in both informal and formal settings, I have come to conclude that spiritual formation of the student is a larger part of ministry preparation than cognitive transfer.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039463#Comment_1039463

well all i need is shelter, food, and water.

When i call them thieves, i'm primarily referring to publishers of content produced from public universities, not as much private. Yes i know the laborer is entitled to his wages, but I do not believe the laborer is entitled to limit what I do with my property. This is not about the entitlement of pay, its about the userious costs.My motivation is simple, I want easy access to extremely expensive content i cannot afford. I've never been better off in my life before regarding spiritual fulfillment because of both my study and improving my attitudes and making myself a better person.(This isn't soeterilogical). I'm not taking it as accusatory. It's very common for people of older generations to believe copyright is a good thing. My agenda is that i want academic publishers to stop being userious thieves who charge exorbidant fees for access to their databases. This goes for anything in general not merely Religious Studies. Most of them are funded directly or indirectly from the taxpayer.

I don't need any of this content because I will not die without it. BUt I don't believe thats the point. Here's an idea, why can't proquest charge an individual 20 dollars to access their thesis/dissertation database for a year? Instead they charge hundreds to thousands of dollars. I consider that userious behavior, especially since they are double, triple, and quadruple dipping into federal funding, loans, grants, and so forth.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039463#Comment_1039463

well it seems my response was flagged as spam i think due to my browser acting dumb with adblock on android.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039473#Comment_1039473

my agenda is simple: i want to have access to content I cant afford and as much as everyone deserves the wages of their labor i cant pay the pricesrequired and mmight never be able to. Im saying especially academic publsihers feel the need to charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars. why cant proquest charge someone 20 dollars a year for complete access to their thesis and dissertation database instead of many hundreds to thousands of dollars?its de facto kept from the public.

i dont need anything but shelter, food, water, and my infusions. THats not the point.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039399#Comment_1039399

I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan.

Sorry, I meant your location in a very general sense as I am familiar only with rural American access to library materials. But I am familiar with wanting access to materials in Tibetan that the one library in the nation that held the book did not have a librarian able to read the text sufficiently to find what you needed. No problem. We all knew what laundromat was owned by a Tibetan. We'd contact him and he'd go over to the library to copy what we needed. He assumed that anyone who knew he was the way to get the material probably really needed it. And, yes, the library belongs to a top-ten research university.

charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars.

The assumption of being funded by tax dollars is true only in some subjects, I suspect.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039526#Comment_1039526

I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan.

Sorry, I meant your location in a very general sense as I am familiar only with rural American access to library materials. But I am familiar with wanting access to materials in Tibetan that the one library in the nation that held the book did not have a librarian able to read the text sufficiently to find what you needed. No problem. We all knew what laundromat was owned by a Tibetan. We'd contact him and he'd go over to the library to copy what we needed. He assumed that anyone who knew he was the way to get the material probably really needed it. And, yes, the library belongs to a top-ten research university.

charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars.

The assumption of being funded by tax dollars is true only in some subjects, I suspect.

I went to the library. It's a joke. It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens. The selection is also useless. I'll check their online database tomorrow i think.
That's extremely interesting about that Tibetan guy and the library.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039531#Comment_1039531

It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039540#Comment_1039540

It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

I agree. Jesus did hang out with sinners and tax collectors. At least one of them became a disciple.

That said, everything of value to the OP has probably already been said, so maybe this thread can fade into the archives

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039541#Comment_1039541

It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

I agree. Jesus did hang out with sinners and tax collectors. At least one of them became a disciple.

That said, everything of value to the OP has probably already been said, so maybe this thread can fade into the archives

Yes I already prayed for them. All I'm saying is that the library doesn't serve any purpose for me. Everyone seems to be misunderstanding me lately but that's probably my own fault, as I'm used to conversing with friends, many of whom are Christian, in ways where we already know the backgrounds of what we're saying.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039658#Comment_1039658

I apologize for my comments about the people working at, and visiting the library. I'm used to talking with people who already know heaps of contextual background and know that I have nothing my prayers to offer for people who aren't in good situations or are opponents of our faith.

I am posting this here, because I accidentally took a different thread the wrong direction because I responded by clicking on threads from email and did not realize I mixed up two threads.

A good chunk of this DOESN'T apply to Logos.

My grumblings are as such:

1. most academic works are funded by tax dollars through grants, tuition loans and grants, directly and indirectly. This does NOT apply to a lot, and probably MOST of the content on Logos.

2. I'm angry that it's legal for these publishers, most of whom do not have content on Logos, are permitted to charge exorbitant fees to access their content which is publicly funded anyway.

3. Christian publishers I believe should want everyone to have access to academic material to defend the faith, at a bare minimum make it inexpensive, not hundreds of dollars for two volumes of something like the Pseudepigrapha edited by James Charlesworth. I use this as an example because it's up to date, and not antiquated. But these publishers do not do that, and do not provide some means of access even without giving ownership.

4. most of my complaints volume wise, are related to the general situation and publishers who do not have content on Logos. However, look at the outrageous tuition prices at seminaries!

5. I've spent actual money on Logos. A friend bought me Orthodox Starter, and I bought Academic Essentials. 100 dollars for me, is more like 1000 dollars, because I have no means of my own, and I cannot work. I'm unhappy that Logos "can't" do anything at all for me. They don't say "we're working on a way to get some publishers to allow free access." all it is we "can't." I'm really sorry about that. 90% off something which publishers sell to Logos at 3000, is still 300 dollars. Not affordable.

I felt I could post my misgivings here. As a final note, I realize my definition of what is "necessary" is different from others. I've already made the argument that our faith is under such constant assault, and skilled, educated assault, by intellectual in bad faith persons such as Bart Erhman and an entire army of similarly minded, that the believer's need exceeds what it has in the past and requires much more now.

J. Remington Bowling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039663#Comment_1039663

Hi Chris,

I'm going to ignore the tax dollars stuff as that's a deeper can of worms. I'll just address the point about Christians needing to be properly equipped.

You're arguing, in part, that Christians should be able to access 'x' in order to defend the faith. You're then arguing that you (and some others like you) can't access 'x' in order to defend the faith (because 'x' is not affordable).

There's a couple things that you might be missing though. 'x' is accessible (affordable) for many Christians (otherwise Faithlife couldn't continue to exist) and different Christians have different vocations. Not every Christian needs to take on Bart Erhman. This month William Lane Craig is traveling to Denmark as part of his ministry. That doesn't mean you or I should be able to go to Denmark as part of our ministry.

Furthermore, it's more than possible for even a poor Christian to equip themselves to defend the faith without access to Logos. Amazon almost always has sales on Kindle apologetic books for between $5 and $2. I have over 500 books in Kindle and I almost never spent more than $10 on a Kindle book. They also have great sales on Christian academic books--in fact you can find several really good books on sale right now for just about $5! (I'm not sure if I can link to them here, but just check out Challies.com where every day he posts links to sales).

In other words, even if you could argue that Christians need access to resources to help them defend the faith. . . there's no real way to argue that Logos has to be the platform to provided you with said access. Aside from Kindle, many churches provide apologetics classes for free. Youtube has tons of free apologetics videos. There are also hundreds of podcasts (like Reasonable Faith or Stand to Reason) that give free apologetics teaching.

Some of these people who provide free teaching also write books that they get paid for. So don't assume that an author or publisher should direct their charity towards making 'x' free or affordable to your specific financial situation. The money made through 'x' may be the means by which they provide free content in other areas that you're just not thinking about.

P.S. I almost forgot: several seminaries put a lot of their content online for free through iTunesU. This includes apologetic material, philosophical material, and theological material.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039707#Comment_1039707

William Lane Craig loses every debate when he goes up against atheists arguing about God's existence.

I don't need to take on Bart Erhman. I need to discuss with people who might be influenced by him.

A lot of apologetic material (the inexpensive stuff) is very weak. Heiser's Naked Bible Podcast is one of the very free free resources which provide arguments which aren't weak.

I don't believe a single resource or a collection of books should cost hundreds of dollars irrespective that some can afford them. This isn't print books which come with hard embedded costs which have to be made up for.

Seminaries do put out some of their content for free. They don't put out the books they use for free.

J. Remington Bowling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039717#Comment_1039717

I don't believe a single resource or a collection of books should cost hundreds of dollars irrespective that some can afford them.

If everyone made 10 million a year, *should* a book that costs $200? What *should* it cost?

Seminaries do put out some of their content for free. They don't put out the books they use for free.

This is irrelevant to my point: if you're arguing that you need to be equipped in certain areas, then I'm pointing out that it's easy to get equipped for free or with very little money without using Logos.

Do you really want to make your argument that you need some very specific resources in order to be properly equipped as a Christian? I'm curious what that list must be.

I mean if you want to make your claim that specific, then you really need a better argument that goes to the specifics. So can you lay out for me the specific resources Christians require (what they require them for--to maintain faith, live fruitfully, etc?) today and why they require them through Logos?

J. Remington Bowling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039717#Comment_1039717

P.S.

A lot of apologetic material (the inexpensive stuff) is very weak.

A lot of the kindle stuff that goes on sale, that I'm referring to, is the same stuff that is in Logos at a much more expensive price. Right now you can pick up a kindle book for $5 that you would have to buy as part of a collection on Logos for about $70. You could just say that this book (and this collection) is garbage. . . but now you'll need to, again, specify which resources you think aren't garbage and how you can't get them anywhere other than Logos at a better price.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039721#Comment_1039721

I dislike kindle's format. At the point I might'es well just just scour the internet for stuff I can download for free which people have uploaded. I'm not saying said content is free content, only that people have uploaded it in a way which allows me to download it for free. I can't write notes on inaccurate OCR PDF ebooks I converted to docx either. I've scanned whole books myself.

"If everyone made 10 million a year..." where is this coming from? It has nothing to do with how much people are making, its about exorbitant prices.

Yes I think up to date translations of pseudepigrapha (Charlesworth) are necessary thanks to attacks upon the Trinity by both secular and Jewish polemicists, many of whom have phd's, which they use as a weapon. I'm not getting anywhere so I'm dropping it for now. I'm having a bad day and the best of me isn't coming out anyway.

J. Remington Bowling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039724#Comment_1039724

I dislike kindle's format. At the point I might'es well just just scour the internet for stuff I can download for free which people have uploaded. I'm not saying said content is free content, only that people have uploaded it in a way which allows me to download it for free. I can't write notes on inaccurate OCR PDF ebooks I converted to docx either. I've scanned whole books myself.

Just an FYI, Kindle now has a scrolling feature on their mobile and PC/laptop software and there is not a major difference between the way content looks on Kindle and the way content looks on Logos. You just won't get the Bible text hyperlinks.

I understand wanting to write notes in books and why PDF can be superior for that purpose. It's not hard to turn a Kindle book into a PDF (though it might not be immediately obvious) and, while it might still be breaking their copyright, it at least wouldn't be stealing the book. (Not trying to be accusatory, just suggesting a safer alternative.)

"If everyone made 10 million a year..." where is this coming from? It has nothing to do with how much people are making, its about exorbitant prices.

My point was just that "exorbitant price" is relative (to average income, perceived value, market value etc).

Yes I think up to date translations of pseudepigrapha (Charlesworth) are necessary

Try abebooks -- you can find it used for about $35 or individually for $15-20. I'm not trying to be facetious, just point out alternatives that might not be well known to others (I first heard of abebooks in college). These books are accessible, just not in their most convenient format on Logos. I don't think Faithlife will be convinced any time soon that people *need* access not just to Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha, but that they need access to it via Logos.

All the best,

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039728#Comment_1039728

I can't use the note or any other function with print books or even ebooks which aren't properly formatted in Logos.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039721#Comment_1039721

P.S.

A lot of apologetic material (the inexpensive stuff) is very weak.

A lot of the kindle stuff that goes on sale, that I'm referring to, is the same stuff that is in Logos at a much more expensive price. Right now you can pick up a kindle book for $5 that you would have to buy as part of a collection on Logos for about $70. You could just say that this book (and this collection) is garbage. . . but now you'll need to, again, specify which resources you think aren't garbage and how you can't get them anywhere other than Logos at a better price.

While Chris is having his bad day, I'd not juxtapose defending the faith with Logos and Charlesworth. My Dad grew a lot of congregations on Lenski (sp?) with the rest of the preacher's salary going to feed the wife and kids. It wasn't fun. Indeed, I'd argue the poorer, the better (salvation-wise, not medical-wise).

But an unanswered question I never resolved, is that if you look at book pricing decades back, then moving into the 1990s (my impression), prices really bounced far faster than inflation. The 1990s was the entry of the big book chains. But I'd also include university tuition. I paid my way through a masters and CPA, working in 3 fast-food chains. No loans, etc. It was quite do-able, books and all, though exhausting.

Sure seems like something changed. Can't afford to be poor anymore. BTW, don't forget eSword's great work.

Barnabas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039730#Comment_1039730

P.S.

A lot of apologetic material (the inexpensive stuff) is very weak.

A lot of the kindle stuff that goes on sale, that I'm referring to, is the same stuff that is in Logos at a much more expensive price. Right now you can pick up a kindle book for $5 that you would have to buy as part of a collection on Logos for about $70. You could just say that this book (and this collection) is garbage. . . but now you'll need to, again, specify which resources you think aren't garbage and how you can't get them anywhere other than Logos at a better price.

While Chris is having his bad day, I'd not juxtapose defending the faith with Logos and Charlesworth. My Dad grew a lot of congregations on Lenski (sp?) with the rest of the preacher's salary going to feed the wife and kids. It wasn't fun. Indeed, I'd argue the poorer, the better (salvation-wise, not medical-wise).

But an unanswered question I never resolved, is that if you look at book pricing decades back, then moving into the 1990s (my impression), prices really bounced far faster than inflation. The 1990s was the entry of the big book chains. But I'd also include university tuition. I paid my way through a masters and CPA, working in 3 fast-food chains. No loans, etc. It was quite do-able, books and all, though exhausting.

Sure seems like something changed. Can't afford to be poor anymore. BTW, don't forget eSword's great work.

Speaking of medical, my mom is on the phone, trying to get my youngest sister's medication paid for. Everything is demoralizing. I don't know the details and I'm too tired to even think clearly. I don't know if its the medicaid waver or not. it's a nightmare and everything feels like its collapsing in on us.

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1039729#Comment_1039729

[quote]

The Parable of the Drowning Man / The Parable of the Flood

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”