Question on Atlas Tool & Its Status

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Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 18 2019 7:00 PM

Denise:
Bootjack:

Thanks for the update Denise! 

I mentioned Zondervan (edited post above) because it operates similar to Atlas. It has the usual historical section, etc. But most important a dictionary by place. This latter includes a small discussion (hooks to a Bible using a CitedBy panel), and then a choice of maps for the location. This latter is also good since there's a popup letting you know what the clickable map discusses ... saves mindlessly bouncing across maps.

Is the something one can purchase from Logos? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 18 2019 7:02 PM

Denise:

Bootjack:
Out of the two ...

Bootjack, Biblical Places was Logos4 maps in 2009, last updated before Logos5. It went off the market at Logos6 and the first version of Atlas.

Rose is a specialty atlas. If you wanted the best, a new thread with what you prefer ... forum mappers have great advice. That's how I found Zondervan.

Would you consider Rose as good or better than Atlas? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 9966
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 18 2019 7:22 PM

Bootjack:
Would you consider Rose as good or better than Atlas?

Someone else will need to answer about Rose. Being a bit catty-ish, I can't imagine a sellable atlas equal to Atlas.

Regarding Zondervan: 

https://www.logos.com/product/26727/zondervan-atlas-of-the-bible 

Keep in mind Zondervan and me don't get along. But this atlas is so interesting (I have to make an exception). The MVP-guy in Europe recommended it to me, I think. It was tough pushing the Buy button.

Anyway in the dictionary part, you have all the locations, of course. Then for each, a short description, and where ref'd in the Bible. Map coordinates, if you're automating. Miles and direction from more well known places, the modern name where available, and then the maps that show it, each with a pop up as above.

I stick all my atlas's in a map tag, then CitedBy it to my Old Testament layout. Very, very nice ... when a location, all my maps that show it.


Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 18 2019 7:28 PM

Got ya Denise. Thanks so much for the info. Presently I'm nearing a comatose state to attempt asking anything half intelligent but the map-tag thing sounds interesting. Let me get back to you sometime regarding that. Thank you again. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 88
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 19 2019 5:15 AM

In my opinion Rose Maps are far better than Zondervan.  There are more maps and they stick with local events better. Rose Maps have many of the Carta Bible Atlas Maps which is the top of the line Bible Atlas.  The New Moody Bible Atlas would be my second choice.  

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 19 2019 5:57 AM

Denise:

Mattillo:
Well gosh Sean... I will apologize ...

I'm sorry, Mattillo, but when I looked at Sean's map, I didn't see any river. I think you'd have to know Kishon was 'the river'.  I don't use the Atlas because they're so adament to not do normal mapping. 

On iOS, I have my favorite mapping (ScenicMaps apps), and the dev guy is quite snappy (doesn't abide fix it suggestions). But he re-did a whole download series because he forgot the river names .. quite apologetic. And real names too ... like 'Mississippi River'. 

Denise, when I saw the map and read Mattillo's reply, I had exactly the same thought about it.  I would not have seen that as a river and was very disappointed to think that Faithlife saw that as a way to locate/label a river on a map.

I suppose I'd have to allow for it as being adequate and that I should have seen it as a river, provided there's a clear legend on the map showing that is how rivers are represented, but even in that case, from my perspective, it's just not good map-making practice and not very user friendly.

Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 12:26 AM

Denise:

I stick all my atlas's in a map tag, then CitedBy it to my Old Testament layout. Very, very nice ... when a location, all my maps that show it.

Could you explain what you mean by a "map tag" & and how one sets that up? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 745
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 10:09 AM

John Brumett:

I think biblical Place Maps could go from a Ok resource to a great resource with a few changes.

Like a commentary list all the scripture verses related to the map event so you can link your bible and it will automatically scroll to the right event map. When you in the Bible double click on the city and the map will automatically zoom in to the location.  Right now you have to play with the Control F key.  Then create a visual filter to show in your Bible the locations that are on that map.    

I now logos philosophy is invest in Logos 8 maps but why not fix both.  Logos 5 maps are more colorful.  

You can link Atlas to your Bible, and then Atlas will display relevant maps for the current passage. Since there are often multiple maps (an overview and a story map), you'll have to pick which one you want.

Here's an example for Acts 13:1 (sorry for all the localized Atlas versions: English-only users will only see the two, Biblical World-The Early Church, and Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus). 

If there are no story maps in Atlas (like Acts 12:18), you'll only see the overview map. Ctrl-F will find any places named in the passage. 

Posts 745
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 10:26 AM

Rick Ausdahl:

Denise:

Mattillo:
Well gosh Sean... I will apologize ...

I'm sorry, Mattillo, but when I looked at Sean's map, I didn't see any river. I think you'd have to know Kishon was 'the river'.  I don't use the Atlas because they're so adament to not do normal mapping. 

On iOS, I have my favorite mapping (ScenicMaps apps), and the dev guy is quite snappy (doesn't abide fix it suggestions). But he re-did a whole download series because he forgot the river names .. quite apologetic. And real names too ... like 'Mississippi River'. 

Denise, when I saw the map and read Mattillo's reply, I had exactly the same thought about it.  I would not have seen that as a river and was very disappointed to think that Faithlife saw that as a way to locate/label a river on a map.

I suppose I'd have to allow for it as being adequate and that I should have seen it as a river, provided there's a clear legend on the map showing that is how rivers are represented, but even in that case, from my perspective, it's just not good map-making practice and not very user friendly.

Making good maps involves a lot of design decisions and compromises. This map is a tough case, because the primary point of the map is to show the territories of the tribes that were gathered by Deborah and Barak. But the colored polygons that show that make some other details hard to see. 

Here's a more typical Atlas map that shows the Kishon river. Our map styling is consistently a blue line for the river and a smaller, italic font for the label. If you zoom in, you'll typically see a label following the river line, often at multiple points depending on zoom level. 

We've chosen a particular technical approach to support zooming, localization, and maintainability. That means we can't easily tweak some details like a static map: a map like this one is really more like 10 different maps at different zoom levels, with different labels and features hidden or shown depending on the zoom level. 

Posts 9966
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 12:51 PM

Bootjack:

Denise:

I stick all my atlas's in a map tag, then CitedBy it to my Old Testament layout. Very, very nice ... when a location, all my maps that show it.

Could you explain what you mean by a "map tag" & and how one sets that up? 

Hi Bootjack

Map tag is a Denise-ism for a plain-jane tag (library resources) named maps (and charts). You could equally drag your map resources into a collection (and name it as desired). Then, you put a CitedBy panel next to your Bible (Old Testament best of course). Click the Add button on the CitedBy panel, select your map resources tag or collection, then link the panel to your Bible. If this sounds complicated, it's really not.

I guess I've ended up with maybe 4 atlas, plus charts, so somebody's always referring to a Bible passage. The funny one is 1 Kings 8:5, where the accountants lost their inventory count.  I was on the phone this morning because the state revenuers gave us back all our taxes (suddenly a big bank account!). When we called up to complain, they said 'Enjoy!'  Sounded just like Solomon.


Posts 88
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 12:58 PM

Sean:

I was talking about the Logos 5 maps.

Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 20 2019 2:13 PM

Denise:

Bootjack:

Denise:

I stick all my atlas's in a map tag, then CitedBy it to my Old Testament layout. Very, very nice ... when a location, all my maps that show it.

Could you explain what you mean by a "map tag" & and how one sets that up? 

Hi Bootjack

Map tag is a Denise-ism for a plain-jane tag (library resources) named maps (and charts). You could equally drag your map resources into a collection (and name it as desired). Then, you put a CitedBy panel next to your Bible (Old Testament best of course). Click the Add button on the CitedBy panel, select your map resources tag or collection, then link the panel to your Bible. If this sounds complicated, it's really not.

I guess I've ended up with maybe 4 atlas, plus charts, so somebody's always referring to a Bible passage. The funny one is 1 Kings 8:5, where the accountants lost their inventory count.  I was on the phone this morning because the state revenuers gave us back all our taxes (suddenly a big bank account!). When we called up to complain, they said 'Enjoy!'  Sounded just like Solomon.

Thank you so much Denise for the Denise-ism plan! I wouldn't have thought of that so your suggestion (instructions) are so much appreciated. When one gets a refund from the government for over-payment in income tax or other tax, it motivates that one to gallop right out to Starbucks for a grand celebration.  

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2019 9:36 AM

Sean Boisen:

John Brumett:

I think biblical Place Maps could go from a Ok resource to a great resource with a few changes.

Like a commentary list all the scripture verses related to the map event so you can link your bible and it will automatically scroll to the right event map. When you in the Bible double click on the city and the map will automatically zoom in to the location.  Right now you have to play with the Control F key.  Then create a visual filter to show in your Bible the locations that are on that map.    

I now logos philosophy is invest in Logos 8 maps but why not fix both.  Logos 5 maps are more colorful.  

You can link Atlas to your Bible, and then Atlas will display relevant maps for the current passage. Since there are often multiple maps (an overview and a story map), you'll have to pick which one you want.

Here's an example for Acts 13:1 (sorry for all the localized Atlas versions: English-only users will only see the two, Biblical World-The Early Church, and Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus). 

If there are no story maps in Atlas (like Acts 12:18), you'll only see the overview map. Ctrl-F will find any places named in the passage. 

Sean, this is a nice feature--I've used it before and do appreciate it.  Thanks for pointing it out again.

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2019 9:54 AM

Sean Boisen:

Rick Ausdahl:

Denise:

Mattillo:
Well gosh Sean... I will apologize ...

I'm sorry, Mattillo, but when I looked at Sean's map, I didn't see any river. I think you'd have to know Kishon was 'the river'.  I don't use the Atlas because they're so adament to not do normal mapping. 

On iOS, I have my favorite mapping (ScenicMaps apps), and the dev guy is quite snappy (doesn't abide fix it suggestions). But he re-did a whole download series because he forgot the river names .. quite apologetic. And real names too ... like 'Mississippi River'. 

Denise, when I saw the map and read Mattillo's reply, I had exactly the same thought about it.  I would not have seen that as a river and was very disappointed to think that Faithlife saw that as a way to locate/label a river on a map.

I suppose I'd have to allow for it as being adequate and that I should have seen it as a river, provided there's a clear legend on the map showing that is how rivers are represented, but even in that case, from my perspective, it's just not good map-making practice and not very user friendly.

Making good maps involves a lot of design decisions and compromises. This map is a tough case, because the primary point of the map is to show the territories of the tribes that were gathered by Deborah and Barak. But the colored polygons that show that make some other details hard to see. 

Here's a more typical Atlas map that shows the Kishon river. Our map styling is consistently a blue line for the river and a smaller, italic font for the label. If you zoom in, you'll typically see a label following the river line, often at multiple points depending on zoom level. 

We've chosen a particular technical approach to support zooming, localization, and maintainability. That means we can't easily tweak some details like a static map: a map like this one is really more like 10 different maps at different zoom levels, with different labels and features hidden or shown depending on the zoom level. 

Sean, I do not envy the design teams.  So many things to consider.  So many different audiences and needs.  What to do, what to do???

I fear I sometimes come across as a cranky old complainer.  I am getting old, but don't mean to come across as either cranky or a complainer.  I did re-read my post about this map the day after making it and wished I worded it differently, as I do think it sounded a bit haughty--my apologies for that.  Unfortunately, it was too late to edit it.

Thank you for sharing the strategies you're trying to follow when producing the maps, and thanks for being so gracious in your replies to cranky, old, complainers.

I do appreciate all the decision making and hard work I know goes into these maps.

Posts 88
John Brumett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2019 5:25 AM

Rick Ausdahl:
this is a nice feature--I've used it before and do appreciate it. 

Rick: How did you get the map to default to Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus? When I link my bible to the map and type in Acts 13:1 I get the Map for Biblical World-the Early Church. It doesn't seem to default to biblical events maps first.  I tried both the ESV and NKJV.  

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 24 2019 8:38 AM

John Brumett:

Rick Ausdahl:
this is a nice feature--I've used it before and do appreciate it. 

Rick: How did you get the map to default to Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus? When I link my bible to the map and type in Acts 13:1 I get the Map for Biblical World-the Early Church. It doesn't seem to default to biblical events maps first.  I tried both the ESV and NKJV.  

John Brumett:

Rick Ausdahl:
this is a nice feature--I've used it before and do appreciate it. 

Rick: How did you get the map to default to Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus? When I link my bible to the map and type in Acts 13:1 I get the Map for Biblical World-the Early Church. It doesn't seem to default to biblical events maps first.  I tried both the ESV and NKJV.  

Hi, John!  I had never made any attempt to link the Atlas to an entry for Acts 13:1--my comment to Sean was simply a generic comment that in the past, I had linked the Atlas to a Bible when doing some Bible reading.  But after seeing your question, I did link the Atlas and a Bible and opened the Bible to Acts 13:1, resulting in the Atlas presenting a list of two maps that related to Acts 13:1.

Here's what I did:

  1. Opened the NIV and assigned it to link-set "A".
  2. Opened the Atlas tool and assigned it to link-set "A".
  3. Opened the NIV to Acts 13:1

At that point, the Atlas replaced the generic list/index of all maps with just the following two maps:

  1. Biblical World -- The Early Church
  2. Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus

I selected "Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus".

Posts 4
LogosEmployee
Ben Vander Woude | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2019 12:27 PM

Hi Rick,

Sean asked me to look into some of the Atlas issues you pointed out. Thanks for the feedback.

----Regarding the slowness and load times...
My Atlas/map load times seem more in line with Sean's times (~4 seconds to load the Atlas tool, then another ~4 - 5 seconds to load the map within Atlas). See here for a visual of my Arnon-to-Atlas load time. Our load times should be a little faster, as (1) our bandwidth is greater than 12 Mbps, and (2) we're physically closer to the Atlas-related servers (Seattle for overlays like labels and arrows/lines, and various Mapbox server locations for the background/terrain), but a 8 second difference seems to much considering these circumstances. Would you mind giving us more information (maybe how long does that Atlas window take to load, and how long it takes for the map within Atlas to load)?  

----Regarding the failure to tilt/rotate a map (via "shift + arrows") until panning has occurred...
This seems to be a Mapbox limitation (the tool we use to display and render an Atlas map). Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do to change this. However, as a work around, "shift + right-click" also tilts/rotates the map and works before panning.

----Regarding holding "shift + arrows" continually doesn't continually rotate the map...
This one is a bug on our end. I've submitted a bug report, but it might be a while before it's fixed (seems lower priority).

----Regarding the rotate button (located under the zoom buttons) getting stuck in flat style...
This one is a bug on our end. I've submitted a bug report, good catch.

----Regarding the limitation on tilt, as well as a request for an indicator for when most extreme tilt has been reached...
This seems to be a Mapbox limitation (won't allow tilting past what you see). This is unfortunate as I also think the tilt stops far too soon. I'm not sure if a max-tilt message or indicator would be helpful for most users though. I'll talk this over with Sean.

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 28 2019 4:53 PM

Ben Vander Woude:

Hi Rick,

Sean asked me to look into some of the Atlas issues you pointed out. Thanks for the feedback.

----Regarding the slowness and load times...
My Atlas/map load times seem more in line with Sean's times (~4 seconds to load the Atlas tool, then another ~4 - 5 seconds to load the map within Atlas). See here for a visual of my Arnon-to-Atlas load time. Our load times should be a little faster, as (1) our bandwidth is greater than 12 Mbps, and (2) we're physically closer to the Atlas-related servers (Seattle for overlays like labels and arrows/lines, and various Mapbox server locations for the background/terrain), but a 8 second difference seems to much considering these circumstances. Would you mind giving us more information (maybe how long does that Atlas window take to load, and how long it takes for the map within Atlas to load)?  

----Regarding the failure to tilt/rotate a map (via "shift + arrows") until panning has occurred...
This seems to be a Mapbox limitation (the tool we use to display and render an Atlas map). Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do to change this. However, as a work around, "shift + right-click" also tilts/rotates the map and works before panning.

----Regarding holding "shift + arrows" continually doesn't continually rotate the map...
This one is a bug on our end. I've submitted a bug report, but it might be a while before it's fixed (seems lower priority).

----Regarding the rotate button (located under the zoom buttons) getting stuck in flat style...
This one is a bug on our end. I've submitted a bug report, good catch.

----Regarding the limitation on tilt, as well as a request for an indicator for when most extreme tilt has been reached...
This seems to be a Mapbox limitation (won't allow tilting past what you see). This is unfortunate as I also think the tilt stops far too soon. I'm not sure if a max-tilt message or indicator would be helpful for most users though. I'll talk this over with Sean.

Ben, thank you for looking into this and for the update.  I will re-check load times for the Atlas and for maps and get back to you, but two quick questions first.

  1. Regarding giving a separate time for the Atlas to load from the times for the maps to load,.  For me, the Atlas never loads without also loading a map at essentially the same time.  Please clarify the point at which I should consider the Atlas to have finished loading and the loading of the initial map to begin.  Giving specifics on subsequent map load times will be no problem--just not sure how to separate the Atlas load from the initial map that loads with it.
  2. Regarding not being able to tilt or rotate with the "shift + arrows" until panning is done.  You said "...as a work around, "shift + right-click" also tilts/rotates the map and works before panning."  I don't follow how a shift and a right click by themselves can control tilting and rotating.  I.e what controls whether your "shift + right-click" request is seen as a tilt request or a rotate request?  And more specifically, what controls whether you're seen as requesting a tilt up or tilt down, or in the case of a rotate, whether you're requesting a rotate left or rotate right?  I assumed there's more to the control requirements than just a "shift + right-click",  but just for fun, I did try doing that on my laptop's trackpad.  Nothing happened, although I wasn't expecting those controls alone to be able to do so.  What additional key-stroke(s) are needed?

Thanks again for looking into this.  It's much appreciated!

Posts 4
LogosEmployee
Ben Vander Woude | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2019 7:02 PM

Hi Rick,

There's a bit of overlap on Atlas vs map loads, but I would classify them as such...

  • Atlas load time = from when you click on the map link in Arnon's Factbook page to when the map titles show up in the left hand panel of Atlas
  • Map load time = from when the map titles show up in the left hand panel to when the map is focused on Arnon

And in regards to the "shift + right click", I totally forgot to specify to hold the right click and move the mouse/pointer (whoops, sorry). The correct instruction is "shift + right click hold + mouse/pointer movement". This may be a bit awkward on a laptop or trackpad.

Hope that helps

Posts 1377
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 4:09 PM

Ben Vander Woude:

Hi Rick,

There's a bit of overlap on Atlas vs map loads, but I would classify them as such...

  • Atlas load time = from when you click on the map link in Arnon's Factbook page to when the map titles show up in the left hand panel of Atlas
  • Map load time = from when the map titles show up in the left hand panel to when the map is focused on Arnon

And in regards to the "shift + right click", I totally forgot to specify to hold the right click and move the mouse/pointer (whoops, sorry). The correct instruction is "shift + right click hold + mouse/pointer movement". This may be a bit awkward on a laptop or trackpad.

Hope that helps

OK Ben, following Sean's procedure and your instructions, here's what I came up with in my latest round with the Atlas.

On average, for the initial load it takes:

  • Just 2 seconds for the Atlas to load from the Arnon Factbook page.
  • Another 12-14 seconds for the map to load and the orange circles to flash on then disappear, and a majority of the map to be rendered.
  • Another 6-8 seconds for the map to completely finish rendering.  The map is usable before rendering is complete, but it is distracting since it's hard to know if it's only terrain that remains to be rendered or if anything of importance may still be added.

On average, once loaded it takes:

  • 3-8 seconds to change from one map to another.  (Most complete in 3-5 seconds but there are outliers.)
  • 2-5 seconds to zoom in/out by 1 tap of the +/- keys.  (Most complete in 2-3 seconds but there are outliers.)
  • 2-4 seconds to pan.
  • 2-3 seconds to rotate map "one tap" of the arrow key.
  • 1-2 seconds to tilt map "one tap" of the arrow key.
  • 2-3 seconds to return map to upright position

FWIW, these are better times than I've experienced in the past, though still not what I would hope for.  Changes are very choppy and with each movement, leaves one unsure if the request is complete or if there's going to be more movement before the request is finished.  Also, note that I am on the most recent release of Logos, though I don't know if that's a factor.

Let me know if you want any additional info.

Thanks!

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