Trying to get a sense of how <Sense> searches work

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Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jun 2 2019 4:09 AM

Sorry about the bad pun …

OK, let's look at Hebrews 11:5 (I'm using the NASB). I right click on the word "took", and see the sense "to transfer (move)". 

I do a "this resource" search, and sure enough, Hebrews 11:5 is listed (along with Esther 2:9 and Colossians 1:13). 

Now I add "INTERSECTS <Person God>" to the search field, so that I am searching for:

<Sense = to transfer (move)> INTERSECTS <Person God>

And the only result is Colossians 1:13. 

When I change INTERSECTS to AND, Hebrews 11:5 is included. 

But shouldn't INTERSECTS and AND bring back the same result here?

What am I missing?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 5:00 AM

AND will return results if both search terms are present in a verse

INTERSECTS returns results if the search terms overlap.

I’m not at my computer at the moment so can’t check the scope of the terms but this will be behind what you are seeing

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 5:55 AM

Graham Criddle:
I’m not at my computer at the moment so can’t check the scope of the terms but this will be behind what you are seeing

Hopefully the two searches below will clarify this further

As you can see there is no intersection of terms in Heb 11:5

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Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:31 AM

Thanks, Graham, I appreciate it. Now I'm trying to get my head wrapped around the idea that "A" could intersect "B", while "B" doesn't intersect "A" in the same verse . . .

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:54 AM

Pastor Greg:
Now I'm trying to get my head wrapped around the idea that "A" could intersect "B", while "B" doesn't intersect "A" in the same verse . . .

Sorry but I don't understand.

If A intersects B then B should also intersect A (that's not the case when using the WITHIN operator)

Where are you not seeing this behaviour?

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Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 4:04 AM

Mea culpa - I left out the "=" in a search when I reversed the terms:

<Sense to transfer (move)> INTERSECTS <Person God>

returns a couple of hundred references, while

<Sense = to transfer (move)> INTERSECTS <Person God>

returns just Colossians 1:13. 

And . . . the equals sign confuses me all over again. <Sense = to move> is not the same as <Sense to move>, but <Person Jesus> IS the same as <Person = Jesus>. That makes no sense to me (no pun intended). 

Ah well

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 5:04 AM

Pastor Greg:
And . . . the equals sign confuses me all over again. <Sense = to move> is not the same as <Sense to move>, but <Person Jesus> IS the same as <Person = Jesus>. That makes no sense to me (no pun intended). 

The Bible Sense Lexicon - where the Senses are defined - is a hierarchical structure - with two items "below" the sense you are searching

Specifying "Sense =" restricts the search to the Sense itself while omitting the "=" searches that Sense and everything beneath it

As there is no such hierarchy in the Person database, both searches return identical results.

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Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 6:46 AM

Ah, that makes sense. I do wish that Logos had a solid, comprehensive search builder (the sidebar is a great proof of concept, but it locks you into specific search forms, and doesn't involve more complicated searches).

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Ross Strader | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 5 2019 3:04 PM

Graham, do mind explaining this statement further? I feel like it is an important distinction that I am missing and might clarify the INTERSECT puzzle I struggle with. 

Specifically, can you explain what ‘overlap‘ means with regard to INTERSECT  and what this helps me discern? 

I know you have better things to do, but I always appreciate the clarity you bring to things.

Graham Criddle:

AND will return results if both search terms are present in a verse

INTERSECTS returns results if the search terms overlap.

I’m not at my computer at the moment so can’t check the scope of the terms but this will be behind what you are seeing

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 5 2019 4:17 PM

Ross Strader:

Specifically, can you explain what ‘overlap‘ means with regard to INTERSECT  and what this helps me discern?

<Sense = to transfer (move)> INTERSECTS <Person God> has one result for "transferred" in Col 1.13 (ESV).

When you right click "transferred" in the ESV, you can see it is tagged for both the <Sense> and the <Person>, so we understand that the search terms intersect or overlap on that word. It is a verb that satisfies the <Sense> of transfer/move and is also a referent for God, in the same way that a pronouns can be.

Dave
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 2:13 AM

Ross Strader:
Specifically, can you explain what ‘overlap‘ means with regard to INTERSECT  and what this helps me discern? 

In addition to what Dave has said its worth knowing that some of the tagging in Logos affects a single word while others affects larger blocks of text.

A (different) example of the latter is that to do with Speech - so large continous portions of text can be tagged showing a particular person was speaking. Then searching for a word or phrase that "INTERSECTS" a speaker finds words or phrases that are completely included within that person's speech.

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Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 3:35 AM

These are really helpful answers, Graham and Dave, thanks!

As a reminder, pure word searches are obviously based on the text; Logos simply finds what's there.

INTERSECT searches are based on how a person or persons decided a particularly word or phrase or block of text should be tagged – that is, their interpretation of the text – and we may not always agree with their decision.  

For instance, the context makes it clear that "firstborn" in Hebrews 1:6 is a reference to Jesus, but it is tagged "Son of David," and will not be found if you search for "<Person Jesus>." 

Logos can do a lot for us (it is my only study resource), but it can't THINK for us. 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 9:14 AM

Pastor Greg:
For instance, the context makes it clear that "firstborn" in Hebrews 1:6 is a reference to Jesus, but it is tagged "Son of David," and will not be found if you search for "<Person Jesus>." 

The inconsistency is illustrated further on, when the "him" that is worshipped is <Person Jesus>.

Dave
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Ross Strader | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 6:32 PM

Graham and Dave, thank you! 

That is Totally clear to me now. I was thinking about it all wrong. 

I appreciate the time you spent. 

Blessings, 

ross

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