Best books on OEC/EC/TE?

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Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jun 2 2019 12:49 PM

Hi Logos community, 

Looking for more book recommendations, again, this time books which argue FOR Old Earth Creation, Evolutionary Creation, and/or Theistic Evolution, etc. Bonus points if their authors are supportive of the authority of Scripture and argue for a literal Adam and Eve. 

I appreciate that OEC and EC/TE are not one and the same but it seemed logical to make a request for both together since they both the same area of interest. Argues for an old earth/universe.

Thanks, fellow Logicians, I look forward to reading your suggestions.Liam

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 939
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 1:29 PM

Liam Maguire:

Hi Logos community, 

Looking for more book recommendations, again, this time books which argue FOR Old Earth Creation, Evolutionary Creation, and/or Theistic Evolution, etc. Bonus points if their authors are supportive of the authority of Scripture and argue for a literal Adam and Eve. 

I appreciate that OEC and EC/TE are not one and the same but it seemed logical to make a request for both together since they both the same area of interest. Argues for an old earth/universe.

Thanks, fellow Logicians, I look forward to reading your suggestions.Liam

Liam

I love books by Hugh Ross who is an Old Earth Creationist believing in an historical Adam. One book is today's Daily Homepage Deal.

https://www.logos.com/product/5288/the-genesis-question

This is one of my favourites by him:

https://www.logos.com/product/43279/why-the-universe-is-the-way-it-is

Posts 980
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 1:51 PM

Thanks guys. Something I had been wondering about . . .

Posts 18668
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 4:25 PM

Denis O. Lamoureux is my favorite proponent of Theistic Evolution, since I've met him and know someone who was instrumental in his faith journey. He is uniquely qualified, as an evangelical with three earned doctoral degrees: in dentistry, evangelical theology and evolutionary biology. He tells his story of how he came to change his mind from a young-earth creationist to an evolutionary creationist in one of the chapters in How I Changed My Mind about Evolution: Evangelicals Reflect on Faith and Science, edited by Kathryn Applegate, J. B. Stump & Deborah Haarsma (IVP Academic, 2016).

He is also one of the four authors featured in Four Views on the Historical Adam (Zondervan Counterparts Series, 2013).

Note that he doesn't meet your criterion for bonus points. But if you're researching this area, you'll be hard-pressed to find evangelicals (believers who who take Scripture as authoritative) who support evolutionary creation or theistic evolution and who also believe Adam and Eve were historical people rather than part of a literary introduction to the book of origins, Genesis. There are other parts of Scripture that are obviously intended as stories that convey some larger theological truth. Jesus' parables are the prime example. Those who argue for an old earth created by means of evolution directed by God tend to view the creation narratives as setting out theological realities rather than scientific ones.

I haven't done an exhaustive study of theistic evolutionists, though. So there might be some out there who fit a historical Adam and Eve into their framework. Or rather fit their framework to allow for a historical Adam and Eve.

Posts 26511
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 4:57 PM

Okay, you got me. I had no clue what you meant by OEC/EC/TE. And I had only a bit more of an idea when I read your post. Unfortunately, my go to source for all things evolution is Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who is grossly underrepresented in Logos/Verbum resources. I think he argues for a teleological theistic evolution. See Astley, Jeff, David Brown, and Ann Loades. Creation: A Reader. Problems in Theology. London; New York: T&T Clark, 2003. for a bit from him.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 2 2019 7:15 PM

Rosie Perera:
There are other parts of Scripture that are obviously intended as stories that convey some larger theological truth. Jesus' parables are the prime example.

Just coincidentally, today munching on lunch and reading, the writer of 1 Enoch (centuries before Jesus; not the later Similitudes)) presents his history as a 'parable'. Looks like the usage is similar to 'an account' ... in this case, a spiritual witness, but presumably could also be a spiritual lesson (Jesus). I was surprised regarding Enoch; I suspect spiritual usage surrounding ancient history is impossible to pin down, as to what the writer meant. The rabbi's quickly re-did Gen 6; not shy.

Fun with Logos.


Posts 24
Roger Pitot | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 7:20 AM

However, John MacArthur has this to say:

Hugh Ross has embraced selected theories of big bang cosmology, which he regards as undisputed fact—including the notion that the universe and the earth are billions of years old—and he employs those theories as lenses through which to interpret Scripture. In effect, he makes Scripture subservient to science—and he does so without carefully separating scientific fact from scientific theory.


Hugh Ross is convinced modern scientific theories can give us a superior understanding of the basic facts related to the origin of the universe. All Ross’s books therefore argue, in effect, that the findings of modern science are necessary to interpret the Bible’s true meaning. According to Ross, our generation—thanks to the evolutionists’ big bang theory—is now able to understand the true meaning of the biblical creation narratives in a way no previous generation ever could.

MacArthur, J. (2001). The battle for the beginning: the Bible on creation and the fall of Adam.

Posts 939
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 7:56 AM

Roger Pitot:

However, John MacArthur has this to say:

Hugh Ross has embraced selected theories of big bang cosmology, which he regards as undisputed fact—including the notion that the universe and the earth are billions of years old—and he employs those theories as lenses through which to interpret Scripture. In effect, he makes Scripture subservient to science—and he does so without carefully separating scientific fact from scientific theory.


Hugh Ross is convinced modern scientific theories can give us a superior understanding of the basic facts related to the origin of the universe. All Ross’s books therefore argue, in effect, that the findings of modern science are necessary to interpret the Bible’s true meaning. According to Ross, our generation—thanks to the evolutionists’ big bang theory—is now able to understand the true meaning of the biblical creation narratives in a way no previous generation ever could.

MacArthur, J. (2001). The battle for the beginning: the Bible on creation and the fall of Adam.

I'm guessing John MacArthur is a Young Earth Creationist. My reading of Hugh Ross is that he holds the Bible as the ultimate authority. One interesting point he makes is that initially the Big Bang was not liked by many in the scientific community as it points to a point in time where the universe was created.

Posts 1836
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 9:38 AM

Liam Maguire:
Looking for more book recommendations

Are you familiar with the writings of John Walton and John Sailhamer? Each has taught at a leading evangelical seminary/graduate school, but interpret early Genesis without a focus on chronology.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2310
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 11:19 AM

A debate between OEC and TE (Hugh Ross's  RTB vs. BioLogos).

I believe William Lane Craig is also writing a new book on creation and the historical Adam.

On the YEC side, I've found Leonard Brand's book to be very honest. One of the few YEC authors who is not ashamed to also present the evidence that contradict their view. https://www.logos.com/product/30992/faith-reason-and-earth-history-2nd-ed (hint: a big monopolistic bully that starts with a has this ebook for free). 

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
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Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 11:23 PM

Hi Everyone, 

Thanks so much for all of the recommendations, this is one of the reasons I love the Logos Forum. So many authors I'd never heard of before, I can't wait to dig into some of these books and do some exploring. 

By way of background, I was saved into a church that with a strong YEC background, attended an Answer in Genesis conference, and read several of Ken Hams books. I continued in my YEC position all through seminary and for serval years after that. 

About 9 years ago I started to get into amateur naturalism as a hobby, particularly keeping insects and spiders (ants, beetles, various native spiders, giant cockroaches, millipedes, I even raised a dragonfly in a fish tank once). A few years later my wife helped to understand physics, a subject which had alluded me throughout formal education, and particularly theories around relativity, light-speed, and time. A few years ago I discovered the Literary Framework view of the Genesis (A third way I had no idea existed). As a result, these three areas of my life crashed together into a growing sense of cognitive dissonance between what I'd be taught and believed, and what I was seeing in my hobby, reading about Genesis 1, and discovering about the universe. 

Recently that dissonance has gotten so great that I need to do something about it. Hence my desire to explore the other side of the argument. Granted, one could hold to a literary framework view of Genesis 1 and still hold to YEC, but it strikes me that it also opens up views on the age of the universe and God's processes in creating life that I previously believed were off limits. 

At the very least I'll come out of the exploration convinced that one's view on creation is not a gospel issue (ie. answer in Genesis) nor a challenge to the authority of scripture (MacArthur). 

I say all that, aware of the guidelines, not to start a discussion but more to help inform any further recommendations. 

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 18668
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 5 2019 12:07 AM

Liam Maguire:

By way of background, I was saved into a church that with a strong YEC background, attended an Answer in Genesis conference, and read several of Ken Hams books. I continued in my YEC position all through seminary and for serval years after that. 

About 9 years ago I started to get into amateur naturalism as a hobby, particularly keeping insects and spiders (ants, beetles, various native spiders, giant cockroaches, millipedes, I even raised a dragonfly in a fish tank once). A few years later my wife helped to understand physics, a subject which had alluded me throughout formal education, and particularly theories around relativity, light-speed, and time. A few years ago I discovered the Literary Framework view of the Genesis (A third way I had no idea existed). As a result, these three areas of my life crashed together into a growing sense of cognitive dissonance between what I'd be taught and believed, and what I was seeing in my hobby, reading about Genesis 1, and discovering about the universe. 

Recently that dissonance has gotten so great that I need to do something about it. Hence my desire to explore the other side of the argument. Granted, one could hold to a literary framework view of Genesis 1 and still hold to YEC, but it strikes me that it also opens up views on the age of the universe and God's processes in creating life that I previously believed were off limits. 

At the very least I'll come out of the exploration convinced that one's view on creation is not a gospel issue (ie. answer in Genesis) nor a challenge to the authority of scripture (MacArthur). 

Given your background, having learned from Ken Ham and then come to question what he taught you, you might be interested in the series of well-researched and insightful blog posts by Ian Panth, wherein he answers Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis.

https://popchrist.com/ken-ham-and-answers-in-genesis-posts/

Ian Panth has a Masters degree in Old Testament from Regent College (where I got to know him) and an MA in Theology and Ethics from Baylor.

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 11:33 AM

Rosie Perera:

Given your background, having learned from Ken Ham and then come to question what he taught you, you might be interested in the series of well-researched and insightful blog posts by Ian Panth, wherein he answers Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis.

https://popchrist.com/ken-ham-and-answers-in-genesis-posts/

Ian Panth has a Masters degree in Old Testament from Regent College (where I got to know him) and an MA in Theology and Ethics from Baylor.

Thanks, Rosie, this is right up my street! His article on AiG and Humean radical scepticism is both interesting and thought-provoking.

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 80
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 6 2019 3:22 PM

Hands down the most comprehensive up to date EC/TE book out there is "Understanding Scientific Theories of Origins:  Cosmology, geology, and biology in Christian Perspective.  The book was developed for an integrative course taught at Wheaton College.  John Walton's chiefly responsible for the theological perspectives.  I am very glad to see that Logos is publishing this.  One warning though:  it very much reads like the textbook it is designed to be.  But on the positive side, there is no other book that combines (and accepts) the latest standard scientific theories in cosmology, geology and biology and then asks what do we make of this theologically.  https://www.logos.com/product/168948/understanding-scientific-theories-of-origins-cosmology-geology-and-biology-in-christian-perspective There are reviews of the book on Amazon and I am sure you can find other reviews as well.  This is really the best resource on EC/TE that has been sponsored by Biologos in my opinion. 

As far as OEC, I echo the comments about Hugh Ross and Reasons to Believe.  Just as Biologos is the key organization for TE, Reasons to Believe is the key one for OEC.

Posts 3232
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 7 2019 5:28 AM

Liam Maguire:

Rosie Perera:

Given your background, having learned from Ken Ham and then come to question what he taught you, you might be interested in the series of well-researched and insightful blog posts by Ian Panth, wherein he answers Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis.

https://popchrist.com/ken-ham-and-answers-in-genesis-posts/

Ian Panth has a Masters degree in Old Testament from Regent College (where I got to know him) and an MA in Theology and Ethics from Baylor.

Thanks, Rosie, this is right up my street! His article on AiG and Humean radical scepticism is both interesting and thought-provoking.

This book isn't in Logos but I think it gives a really good scientific look at 6-day creation: https://usstore.creation.com/the-genesis-account 

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 7 2019 10:31 AM

Paul:

Hands down the most comprehensive up to date EC/TE book out there is "Understanding Scientific Theories of Origins:  Cosmology, geology, and biology in Christian Perspective.  The book was developed for an integrative course taught at Wheaton College.  John Walton's chiefly responsible for the theological perspectives.  I am very glad to see that Logos is publishing this.  One warning though:  it very much reads like the textbook it is designed to be.  But on the positive side, there is no other book that combines (and accepts) the latest standard scientific theories in cosmology, geology and biology and then asks what do we make of this theologically.  https://www.logos.com/product/168948/understanding-scientific-theories-of-origins-cosmology-geology-and-biology-in-christian-perspective There are reviews of the book on Amazon and I am sure you can find other reviews as well.  This is really the best resource on EC/TE that has been sponsored by Biologos in my opinion. 

As far as OEC, I echo the comments about Hugh Ross and Reasons to Believe.  Just as Biologos is the key organization for TE, Reasons to Believe is the key one for OEC.

Thanks, Paul, this looks like an excellent resource, as does the set that it is a part of: https://www.logos.com/product/170970/ivp-studies-in-creation 

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 7 2019 10:35 AM

Mattillo:

This book isn't in Logos but I think it gives a really good scientific look at 6-day creation: https://usstore.creation.com/the-genesis-account 

Hi Mattillo, thank you for the suggestion. However, being well versed in the arguments supporting 6-day Creation I'm not looking for those kinds of resources at this time. As my OP indicated I'm specifically looking for "books which argue FOR Old Earth Creation, Evolutionary Creation, and/or Theistic Evolution".

Do you have any recommendations within that space? 

Blessings, Liam

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 9 2019 12:29 AM

Morning everyone, 

First of all, a huge thank you to all of you in helping with recommendations, I wish I could buy them all!

In the end, this is what I've purchased: 

  1. The Lost World of Adam and Eve by John Walton (picked this up on Audible in the end).
  2. How I Changed My Mind About Evolution: Evangelicals Reflect on Faith and Science

I'm also saving up my pennies for the IVP Studies in Creation series which looks phenomenal in size and scope.

I'll also be reading the blog articles at https://popchrist.com/ken-ham-and-answers-in-genesis-posts/ (Thanks, Rosie). Whilst occasionally the writer does come across a little mocking, the content he has produced is excellent. Start with 'Ken Ham's Humean Skepticism' and 'Why Ham is really Bacon'. His series on early Christian writers is also fascinating, especially, Augustine.

Finally, based on my reading so far, I'd suggest avoiding Controversy of the Ages by Cabel and Rasor.

First, they couch the books primary argument in the authority and inerrancy of Scripture. I'm convinced this is a massive red herring which obscures rather than adds enquiry. 

Second, the chapters on Darwin's life and works have very few (any?) that seems to me, frankly, shocking considering that Origin, Voyages, his Autobiography, and correspondence are all readily available. Third, and finally, the section on the impact and reception of Origin and the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is contained exclusively to the US, with any theologian who accepted theory being conveniently written off as a liberal. That may be in the history of reception in the US (maybe), I doubt this has been the history of the church elsewhere at the time. 

I hope that helps anyone else asking similar questions to myself now or in the future. 

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 18668
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 9 2019 7:43 AM

Liam Maguire:
Third, and finally, the section on the impact and reception of Origin and the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is contained exclusively to the US, with any theologian who accepted theory being conveniently written off as a liberal. That may be in the history of reception in the US (maybe), I doubt this has been the history of the church elsewhere at the time.

I have a good friend in England, an evangelical, who is a historian of Christianity, a professor at Oxford and Regent College. She tells me the whole "creation vs. evolution" thing is a uniquely U.S. phenomenon. At least among evangelicals in England, the science of evolution is not viewed as incompatible with belief in a Creator God and taking the Bible seriously as God's Word. They don't have all the baggage of the Scopes Trial and the years of entrenchment of the YEC mindset and find that battle between faith and science to be quite puzzling.

Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 9 2019 9:50 AM

Liam Maguire:
First, they couch the books primary argument in the authority and inerrancy of Scripture. I'm convinced this is a massive red herring which obscures rather than adds enquiry. 

Not disagreeing with you, or Rosie. 

But a 'red herring' seems the same as calling 'liberal'?

Our little burg (Japanese visitors call it a village) gets blanketed with a top-quality paper and colour brochure written each quarter, with an annual cost of about $50,000, by the couple in the church down the stream from us. It's professional, eaking out every hint of error in science, especially as regards geology (aka evolution). The gentleman is nice, fun to chat with, and certainly no one is going to tell him 'no'. He's totally convinced ... no games.

The problem is, he makes it almost impossible to start a conversation regarding salvation with neighbors, since you first have take care of the folks' angry quarterly trip to the trash can.

Logos has some good greek and roman histories (prepubs!); the cosmos was quite 'liberal' regarding new discoveries that questioned the gods. But Jesus, or later NT writers didn't seem to care yea/nea ... apparently not a big issue when salvation was the criticality.

OT-ish: The apocrypha show this principle, if you read it closely ... science had arrived. Doctors!


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