Removing the apocrypha...

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 1:54 PM

Sascha Andreas John:
The Apocrypha are in the Septuaginta and this is the BIble of the First Christians and the Church Fathers….dont'care About Church Fathers? You should they created what you believe ;-)

Now, now. We don't actually know what the Antiochians were using, though James appears to be using a superset of the hebrew OT. And one has to guess about early LXX content. Yes, later LXXs had the apocrypha, and then some.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 2:50 PM

Andrew Biddinger:
Logos (not Verbum) would not default just to the 66 book canon

The division is not Catholic/non-Catholic so a Verbum/Logos distinction would be inaccurate. See https://ref.ly/logosres/interactive:canon-comparison?pos=index.html%23!%2flist%2fbooks   or The Apocrypha: The Lutheran Edition with Notes by Edward A. Engelbrecht However, in many cases, the canon of your highest priority Bible rules so I try to have a Bible with an ecumenical canon as my highest priority e.g. NRSV.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 2:54 PM

Joel:
For a basic bible search there's no search option for 'exclude apocrypha', and from what I've seen the fuzzy search always includes them.

FALSE. You exclude them by use of the Bible range parameter as Sean illustrated above. However, the Fuzzy Bible Search has a bug that causes it to ignore the range parameter. BUG: Fuzzy Search ignores reference range setting What Bible are you using as your highest priority Bible? IIRC that determines the canon in some contexts.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:02 PM

Robert M. Warren:
In the recesses of my frequently faulty memory, there's recollection of a Program Setting in Logos to filter out the Apocrypha

There should be a corresponding brouhaha memory that caused Logos to remove the option as too controversial. The thread is locked.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:09 PM

Denise:
Now, now. We don't actually know what the Antiochians were using, though James appears to be using a superset of the hebrew OT.

No evidence whether oral or LXX or . . .  but https://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanonical-books-new-testament/ sheds some light on your comment.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Andrew Biddinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:12 PM

MJ. Smith:

The division is not Catholic/non-Catholic so a Verbum/Logos distinction would be inaccurate. See https://ref.ly/logosres/interactive:canon-comparison?pos=index.html%23!%2flist%2fbooks 

That is a helpful chart showing the differences in canons in the religions and denominations today. Thanks. In regards to this thread, it would be nice if this could be set by default to one's corresponding tradition. I don't know what FL's official plans are for their software. My statement was was on what I see advertised by the two versions. Verbum is obviously advertised as the Catholic Bible software. Logos (from what I've seen in advertising) focuses on Protestant audiences.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:41 PM

MJ. Smith:

Denise:
Now, now. We don't actually know what the Antiochians were using, though James appears to be using a superset of the hebrew OT.

No evidence whether oral or LXX or . . .  but https://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanonical-books-new-testament/ sheds some light on your comment.

First, no intent to offend.

Second, it's really hard to figure out who was using what (DSS use of parts of the apocrypha is truly bizarre), and I agree that your reference (from well after the first Christians) reflects a loosey-goosey authoritative source list (much of the greek LXX parallels appear to have a third source).

But third, the early Christians don't seem to really care where things came from. My favorite remains with Clement (Rome). Why bother with the Old Testament, quotes from Jesus, or swirling Pauline logic. The best explanation for resurrection is the Thunderbirds! Phoenix Arizona!  

And finally fourth, I don't understand 'protestants don't use the apocrypha' (forum discussions). Where'd that come from?  I'd think protestant usage is fairly common knowledge.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 3 2019 3:54 PM

Denise:
First, no intent to offend.

None taken. None presumed Geeked

Denise:
And finally fourth, I don't understand 'protestants' don't use the apocrypha. Where'd that come from?

The usual, "they ain't us so I can be sloppy in my descriptions" garbage that is terrible hard to avoid.

Denise:
But third, the early Christians don't seem to really care where things came from.

My favorite lesson on this subject was a joint seminar in which a Buddhist text was offered in Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese and, where practical, Mongolia, Korean, Sanskrit.  The participants had to be comfortable in at least two of the languages. Those who were most comfortable in Sanskrit would argue morphology and syntax; those who were most comfortable in Chinese would argue the linage of those who translated the text into Chinese. We were used to popular "author" names being used for centuries with no indication who the actual author was.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Andrew Biddinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 5:19 AM

MJ. Smith:

Denise:
And finally fourth, I don't understand 'protestants' don't use the apocrypha. Where'd that come from?

The usual, "they ain't us so I can be sloppy in my descriptions" garbage that is terrible hard to avoid.

I might not totally understand who/what you are referring to in the thread. But, my intent was not to classify anyone that doesn't believe what I believe with any description and pretend to know what they believe. My intent was to comment on the topic of this thread which was on being able to do a Bible search without what Protestants call the Apocrypha. Because we (I speak in general terms not pretending to know what all Protestants believe about the canon, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Bible) don't believe the Apocrypha is what we call "The Bible." I hope that clears up my intent.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 7:47 AM

Andrew Biddinger:
I might not totally understand who/what you are referring to in the thread.

I can't speak for MJ, but I clarified while she was replying to me.

The issue goes back, and from what I can see:

- Logos tended to see a 66 book Bible, in their various designs, leaving out various protestants, as well as most of Catholics.  MJ's spent quite a bit of effort trying to get their designers to recognize the customer variations

- When Logos cuts corners, it can impact both ways. In this thread, apparently the design (fuzzy) favored the larger canon, to those using the 66 canon. The OP was justified in asking why.

- Many users, on FL intro'ing Verbum, viewed Logos as the 'evangelical' version, forgetting there were more protestants that use the larger set of books, as well as variations of non-Protestant.

- Logos tries to avoid options, and only from nails on a chalkboard, will entertain the obvious: there's multiple user groups, and it matters to them.


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Andrew Biddinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 8:08 AM

Denise:

there's multiple user groups, and it matters to them.

Agreed. I can see how this would be a sensitive issue for her, hearing a bit of background. Thanks for replying.

Posts 131
Joel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 8:30 AM

MJ. Smith, have you been playing too much Phoenix Wright lately or what? I see you like to lead with some hard hitting all-caps! :)

As mentioned, I’m just a guy who doesn’t want to see the apocryphal works (or whatever you want to call them) in a fuzzy search by default. It doesn’t matter why, beyond understanding there are many people like me out there. Whether this is a bug or design fault doesn’t matter either. It shouldn’t be a difficult thing to adjust.

Logos devs, can you guys please tweak things so this is as easy as it probably should be? That goes for mobile as well as desktop. Thanks muchly.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 9:08 AM

Hi Joel

Joel:
That goes for mobile as well as desktop

I just wanted to understand this a bit better.

Fuzzy search - which I think is what is being focussed on here - isn't currently supported on mobile so I'm interested where you are seeing this.

I know if you select all Bibles you do get results from the apocrypha (assuming you have Bibles that include those books) but that's a different topic.

Are you able to advise please?

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 9:09 AM

I'm a Protestant who does not see the Apocryphal books as canon, however, personally, I don't mind seeing them in searches. Many of these intertestamental books (which is what they are IIRC) are important regardless of whether they are inspired or not. They show how ideas develop after the end of the OT canon and help form the 'background radiation' to much of the New Testament (along with Philo, the Pseudepigrapha, etc.). I mean, several NT texts make direct references and allusions to works that ended up in the Apocrapha so one has to do something with it/them. 

Long story short, I like to think about it as getting a bonus background search thrown in for free! Sorry, a bit off topic but I hope it will help the stimulating conversation around the OP question. :-)

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 10:50 AM

As a Catholic, I'd like to be able to limit Fuzzy Search results according to whatever reference range I feel like and to change that range whenever I want.

I think the canon issue is a red herring in this thread: I think that the real trouble is the relevant BUG, already mentioned above.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 11:24 AM

Yes

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

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Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 12:06 PM

SineNomine:

I think the canon issue is a red herring in this thread: I think that the real trouble is the relevant BUG, already mentioned above.

On reflection, yeah that's fair. Thanks for the gentle reminder to stay on topic and to direct replies at the issue at hand. Blessings.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 2:20 PM

Just for clarity as I have been somewhat misunderstood:

  • My objection was the use of "Protestant" to define the shorter canon as there are Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran, ...) who acknowledge the broader canon and it is mainline Protestants who fuel the ecumenical canon market.
  • My comment re:sloppiness was specifically with regards to not acknowledging that there is variation within the Protestants ... which is typical of seeing things e.g. Logos/Verbum as a Catholic/Protestant when few if any things fit nicely into the division. And it usually is thinking only of English speaking Europeans and North Americans.
  • I agree wholeheartedly that the Fuzzy Search should respect the range option which is why I've called it a bug. I suspect the designers thought that if you barely remembered the words, you certainly wouldn't remember where it was from.


P.S. I'd actually like to see an even broader canon supported as canonical so I could read books from any tradition with equal ease. And, I would like to be able to use a narrower New Testament for the same reason.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 2:30 PM

Joel:
MJ. Smith, have you been playing too much Phoenix Wright lately or what? I see you like to lead with some hard hitting all-caps! :)

Had to Google that one - haven't heard of it from my video game playing grandsons and my only great-grandchild is still too young to be interested. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 4 2019 6:01 PM

David Thomas:
I seem to recall that Logos used to default to a 66 book canon in searches, where Verbum defaults to a larger canon. Does one's default (highest prioritized) Bible translation do this?

Passage ranges (COMMON DIVISIONS under All Passages) reflect the bible being searched. In Logos, the OT Division for English bibles tends to reflect a shorter Protestant canon (Gen-Mal); so the Apocrypha is excluded from KJV/NRSV. But the OT division for Douay-Rheims includes Apocrypha (Gen- 2 Macc). This seems to be independent of preferred bible (D-R vs. ESV). The Divisions in Verbum might reflect a larger canon.

Dave
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