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Posts 133
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Daniel Motley (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 20 2019 1:34 PM | Locked

Welcome to the Messianic Jewish Products forum!

This is the place to find out about new Messianic Jewish products, as well as request new products or features for Logos that are relevant to Messianic Jews.

Product Manager, Faithlife

Posts 8895
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 20 2019 4:14 PM

I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 76
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 21 2019 10:44 AM

Wonderful, I'm super excited about this!!

Posts 6313
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 22 2019 1:44 PM

Got a bunch of resources in my MJ Silver Base Package 👍😁👌 Looking forward to reading some of the books included on the Messianic Jewish movement.

DAL

Posts 3023
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 24 2019 9:16 AM

Please move this forum into the appropriate spot in the list of forums.

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 1:47 AM

I'm really glad to see Logos has finally made Messianic Jewish base packages, but can you imagine a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox base package with reformation theology products within them?

I was quite disappointed to see so much reformation theology books. Messianic Jewish faith is based on:

1) Early Christianity and early Judaism

2) Archeology and historical records.

3) A VERY strong emphasis on the Hebrew language as was documented by the church fathers.

4) Targums and other ancient religious literature.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 3:34 AM

David Roberts:
I'm really glad to see Logos has finally made Messianic Jewish base packages, but can you imagine a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox base package with reformation theology products within them?

yes. I think Calvin's Institutes were part of all Catholic (=Verbum) base packages since inception up unto Logos 6 or 7 (currently it seems they are not).

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 4:26 AM

NB.Mick:

yes. I think Calvin's Institutes were part of all Catholic (=Verbum) base packages since inception up unto Logos 6 or 7 (currently it seems they are not).

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate it.

It's just that Messianic faith like Eastern Orthodoxy, has quite a very different stance on issues like salvation, truly abiding in the Messiah and that it is possible to lose one's standing like Demas, Paul's co-worker, who forsook the Lord for the pleasures of the world.

When there's so many good Messianic resources in Logos' library, I was just disappointed not seeing them, but lots of reformation books in the Messianic base package...

Posts 10112
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 6:10 AM

David Roberts:
I was quite disappointed to see so much reformation theology books

Goodness! Bad humor, but maybe either (a) they renamed a reformation package from years back, or (b) are wanting MJ's to reform.  It does sound quite disappointing. Maybe that's why all the reform Logosians were so excited?


Posts 133
LogosEmployee
Daniel Motley (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 9:26 AM

David Roberts:

When there's so many good Messianic resources in Logos' library, I was just disappointed not seeing them, but lots of reformation books in the Messianic base package...

Hi Mr. Roberts,

Thanks so much for your feedback. We're always looking to improve our offerings for the future. You mention that there are "lots of Reformation books in the Messianic base package". Are there specific resources that you find problematic? Understanding which ones you find troublesome will go a long way to help us increase the quality of base packages for the future.

Thanks!

Product Manager, Faithlife

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 6:18 PM

Daniel Motley (Faithlife):

Hi Mr. Roberts,

Thanks so much for your feedback. We're always looking to improve our offerings for the future. You mention that there are "lots of Reformation books in the Messianic base package". Are there specific resources that you find problematic? Understanding which ones you find troublesome will go a long way to help us increase the quality of base packages for the future.

Thanks!

Thank you for being open for feedback. I'm truly touched. I'll make a list when I get home from work and I'll explain all the rationales.

I don't know if you know, but I'm the original poster from way back in 2015 who compiled a list of resources and posted in suggestions for a Messianic Base Package.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/99280.aspx?PageIndex=1

Regardless of what I believe are some shortcomings, you've placed some great resources in there.

I hope word gets around in the Messianic community about it. You might want to go to Messianic conferences with a table and showcase what Logos can do to get word out.

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 25 2019 11:44 PM

Apologies, there's been quite a lot of influenza going around at work and let's just say I want to wait till I'm clear headed again so I can do it justice.

Once I'm good, I'll be printing out A3 lists and I'll do my best.

Posts 1
suzanna nichols | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2019 10:07 AM

Hi Mr. Motley and Mr. Roberts,

Just wanted to say that we are very excited about the new Messianic Jewish base packages!!

In response to Mr. Roberts' posts and your comments regarding potential changes to the packages in the future, I just wanted to point out that there is as much diversity within the Messianic communities as there is within any other theological-denominational grouping (consider the many groups of Jewish or Evangelical adherents). There are those within Messianic Jewish communities that would agree with aspects of Reformation theology and even with parts of Calvin's teachings. As such, it would seem better to include a wider variety of materials rather than to remove materials. If we limit ourselves to only those resources with whom we completely agree, we will have very small libraries indeed.

Many thanks to Logos for the new base packages! We can't wait to pick one out and begin reading.

Posts 3023
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2019 8:28 AM

Thank you FL for moving this forum to the correct spot in the list of forums.

Posts 569
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 4 2019 8:21 PM

Greeting DAL, and other posters of this thread.

DAL, hope you do not mind using your post to have some questions posted, as the thread originator does not have a reply button.

First question (anyone's input welcome):  What is the best way to have a collection with all the MJ resources included for searching? Do I have to tag each resource, or just write in the rule box "Messianic Jew", "Messianic Judaism"?

Or is there a MJ package collection somewhere in FL group?

Another question: Do you know of any resource that compares the Evangelical worldview to the "largest MJ group" worldview?

Quickly browsing the net I see that there are many groups within MJ, and they have different views on different topics.

Some topics I would like to see compared:

In general what is the most common view of MJ about creation? and how does it compares to that of evangelicals?

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/171640/a-john-haught-reader-essential-writings-on-science-and-faith

Trinity: Some bible studying believers think that is wrong to refer to God and His Hypostasis as "persons", because God is way above and beyond our contextual understanding of person.

What is MJ view on God's Hypostasis (Divine Substantive Realities) that are perceived by us as persons, because of our limited ontological status?

Sovereignty of God and free will: some believers think that because God could in His omniscience foresee what each creature would do with his / her free will, He was able to assign a Wheat or Tare status to each respecting what was the leaning in the heart: was the person after being created use free will to accept God as Lord and Savior, and accept the adopted children status or not.

What would be MJ view on this? How in their view one person gets to be Wheat or Tare?

Deification (Theosis): Being a living stone part of the New Temple of God (body of Christ), does not mean that that living stone is the Spirit that indwells such New Temple. Thus true sheep of God know that creatures will never have self-existence (aseity), as that is a non-communicable attribute of God, and precisely what makes Him worthy of Worship.  We will always depend on Him for our continued existence because we are creatures.

What is MJ view on this?

Entrance into the New Covenant: just as there were pre requisites set by God to enter the OT, the New Covenant has its own God set pre requisites:

Read / Hear, understand, repent, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (accept Him and His sacrifice for us for salvation), baptize as per Acts 2:38, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, walk humbly with your God doing as He tells you: good works in gratitude for a freely bestowed salvation, not to be saved by such works.

Without the prerequisites done, and the gift of the Holy Spirit who is our seal, one remains in the foolish virgin category liable to go through the tribulation, while those that comply with the prerequisites and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are to be raptured to the supper of the wedding of the Lamb.

Many MJ are of a charismatic leaning, but what is their take about the rapture?

Authority in the Church: God is the ultimate authority on His church. The Holy Spirit communicates who He wants, for what purpose, and other details.  Man made choices are usually not in accordance to God's will.

What is the take MJ have on this important matter?

Healing and miracles: true believers know that the miracle worker has always been Jesus Christ, and as He makes Himself present in services (as promised, to be with us to the end), He continues to do good because God is good and his h: heed is forever (not until the closing of the Canon).

Do many MJ agree with the above?

There are a myriad other important topics, so that takes us to a key question: is there a MJ Systematic Theology?

I assume that MJ and other posters are very interested in the topics above, remember I write to obtain information on their worldview, and not to start polemics.  The main aim is to promote further research, reflection and constructive and appropriate comment.

Thanks ahead of time for useful input.

Peace and grace. Shalom.

Posts 150
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 5 2019 12:12 PM

What a wonderful new package.   

It has much of what I want and need; and, as soon as it goes on a big sale I am going to snap up the Diamond package if I can swing it.

With that said, one weakness is that Logos doesn't seem to have much to help some stand alone guy learn Hebrew.  I can listen to Dr. Futado and his course is great.   I can also continue to use Dr. Heiser's videos on how to use the hebrew interlinear bibles (very good resource, just expensive and out of date in that it uses Logos 6) but, there is nothing for me to hear any real Hebrew.  How bout a Hebrew audio bible and some resources on the actual pronunciation of the language.   

Hebrew is difficult to learn with only my eyes and my brain.... i sure would like to involve my ears.

Except for that minor issue I, as a plain old believer, am HAPPY with the "stuff" in the package.  Good work.  Even the reformed stuff is fine with me: Isn't Jesus the Messiah after all?????   It seems like the more I read the more I learn....even the reformed stuff.

Now, let's get that big introductory sale going!!!!!

Rob

Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 5 2019 11:10 PM

Rob Lambert:

With that said, one weakness is that Logos doesn't seem to have much to help some stand alone guy learn Hebrew.  I can listen to Dr. Futado and his course is great.   I can also continue to use Dr. Heiser's videos on how to use the hebrew interlinear bibles (very good resource, just expensive and out of date in that it uses Logos 6) but, there is nothing for me to hear any real Hebrew.  How bout a Hebrew audio bible and some resources on the actual pronunciation of the language.   

Hebrew is difficult to learn with only my eyes and my brain.... i sure would like to involve my ears.

Almost anything you hear is going to be based on Modern Hebrew, which has some considerable differences for about 40-50% of the phonemes (consonants & vowels). This has been discussed before on the forum. I've also pointed out that Futato, and pretty much all the other "experts" as well, give pronunciations in their grammars that are demonstrably wrong (i.e. non-historical)...and most openly admit it. Logos has a Hebrew Audio resource, voiced by Randall Buth, I believe. He's pretty well-known for his reconstruction of Koine Greek, but I have grave misgivings about much of his Hebrew pronunciation. Often I hear people say "I don't care if it's historically legit...I just want to know how others pronounce it now." There is a set of mp3 files available on the internet of a rabbi reading the entire Tanakh:, for what it's worth. Just be aware...practicing Jews of today have WIDE variations in their pronunciations. In other words, what you will end up with is basically a crap shoot, and I fear the dice are loaded.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 5 2019 11:54 PM

Rob Lambert:
there is nothing for me to hear any real Hebrew

There have been plenty of requests for a Hebrew audio bible, along with discussions about which pronunciation should be used.

In the meantime, if you want to think outside the (Logos) box, a portion of synagogue services are in Hebrew, and many synagogues offer Hebrew classes as well, where you'd have an opportunity to read and speak Hebrew. It's also an educational opportunity to learn more about Judaism.

Other ways to hear spoken Hebrew include listening to a Hebrew podcast, watching a Hebrew movie or TV series on Netflix, or learning Modern Hebrew using Duolingo.

As David has mentioned, there are websites were you can hear a Rabbi reading from a Torah passage.

If you are looking for an immersive educational experience to learn Modern Hebrew, Ulpan classes are an alternative.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 6 2019 3:22 AM

Rob Lambert:

What a wonderful new package.   

It has much of what I want and need; and, as soon as it goes on a big sale I am going to snap up the Diamond package if I can swing it.

......

Now, let's get that big introductory sale going!!!!!

Same for me. Just waiting for the sale. Hope it comes soon.

Posts 310
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 28 2019 12:02 PM

Those considering the Messianic Diamond package, be careful to look closely.

The overview says, "...Logos 8 Messianic Jewish Platinum and adds even more to your library, with resources like Library of Hebrew Bible / Old Testament Studies (LHBOTS) (382 vols.)"

Under the Resource Highlights the top item is: 

So that's 2 places which indicate LHBOTS (382 vols) is included. I was quite excited to see that in there and could hardly stop myself from pulling the trigger, but, even so it's a big commitment to pay off something like that.  Partial screen shot from the Messianic Diamond description of this library that's "included":

I've been mulling it over for the last few days.  I decided to meticulously go through and check and it turns out, if you scroll down past the first 2 entries that make it seem like you're getting this product "LHBOTS 382 volumes" to the part where individual items are listed, there's a little icon of a semicircle.  I thought "what's that?"

If you hover over it, an alt tag popup says,

"109 out of 384 resources in this collection are included".  

So guys, be careful.  Dear marketing folks over at Logos, please change your description on the Messianic Diamond package; I'm sure nobody intended it to be misleading but it is VERY misleading.  For starters, let's not title the thing included "384 volumes" when it's closer to a fourth of that. I'm not sure how you can even call it the same collection when the vast majority of volumes in LHBOTS are NOT included in the Messianic Diamond package.

Barukh Hashem I did not commit to buying this last week. 

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

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