Liturgical Press: Wisdom Commentary about to Ship

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Posts 10107
Denise | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 15 2019 2:21 PM

https://www.logos.com/product/168342/liturgical-press-wisdom-commentary-series 

If 'feminist' gets your theological blood boiling, read no further.

I found it by accident, and put in my order. I usually avoid 'feminist' where the filter is an obvious agenda (ditto on the guy-side).  I like new perspective, added info not normally considered, etc). I looked at several of the samples; worth 30 days as a minimum, and I like LP work.

From what I can see, they take the scholarly route (eg OT priestly, etc), and do some very nice comparisons (ergo worth a try for me).

It's probably the first large-scale commentary with this perspective. There's been single-volume versions. I was surprised, they're including the deutero-canon (apocrypha), beginning with Baruch. So, maybe some 2nd Temple perspectives.

It sits on the Catholic side, though Accordance has it too. I was surprised Pope Francis knew a lot about the villages under Mt Pinatubo. That was nice.

If you mindlessly kept reading, but need extra confirmation not to buy this (smiling):

https://polumeros.blogspot.com/2017/01/review-of-wisdom-commentary-on-hebrews.html 


Posts 267
Roger Dittmar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 15 2019 3:22 PM

Denise:
 I like new perspective, added info not normally considered, etc

I placed my order, also. Thank you Faithlife for making this series available!

Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 15 2019 7:37 PM

Denise:

If you mindlessly kept reading, but need extra confirmation not to buy this (smiling):

https://polumeros.blogspot.com/2017/01/review-of-wisdom-commentary-on-hebrews.html 

Thanks Denise for including the review on the commentary on Hebrews - very interesting. My reading of the review is that the reviewer believes the writers have misused and/or misinterpreted the text and seem to have a contempt for basic Christian doctrine. If that's true, I feel sad for the writers especially given that being feminist doesn't necessarily mean taking that road. Although I have feminist writers in my library, this is a series I think I'll leave on the shop shelf. Keep well  Paul             

Posts 10107
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 16 2019 6:46 AM

Paul:
the reviewer believes the writers have misused and/or misinterpreted the text and seem to have a contempt for basic Christian doctrine

I felt sorry for him, since Hebrews was his baby. Who could ignore Melchizedek?!  A bit OT, but I was reading an apostolic fathers resource (from Logos), and the author based his whole author-analysis of 1st Clement, on Clement as author of Hebrews (they're very similar). But the circular logic was head-spinning.

I don't get too excited with words like 'contempt'. A sizable portion of the early church had the exact same questions, with the only solution then, a bad diety (plus the Father). And the same questions remain today, when moral demands exceed historical behaviors.


Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 16 2019 10:18 AM

It is  a fabulous set I own it in Accordance and have found over the past 9 months to be very insightful and helpful.

-dan

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 16 2019 7:04 PM

From the review and information, it doesn't look like something I'd be interested in.  I never like when a biblical commentary takes a specific approach to gender or ethnicity.  Reading Hebrews from a feminist perspective is no more appealing to me than reading Hebrews from a non-feminist perspective. My point is that original readers didn't read it from a feminist or non-feminist perspective and I don't think we should either. I think it is then that we automatically set our selves up for interpreting through the lenses of those presuppositions.   That being said, even reading the reviews on it, the authors seem bent on taking offense and interpreting the text through the lens of offense.  Why does it seem to me (and this is my personal view), that so many feminists are angry?  My daughter is a professing feminist, loves Jesus to pieces, and when I listen to her, she makes so much sense.  Yet, why are so many who represent feminism so angry?  I don't know, but it seems to me that if half the quotes the reviewer posts are actually in the Hebrews commentary, I personally wouldn't find it appealing at all, even as a free resource---never mind paying for it.

Denise, I hope you come back and let us know what you think of it once you have finished reading.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 17 2019 11:52 AM

It is not always angry or reading through a lens of offence. I have no issues with those because it is not my lens but it can be very important to learn about how others hear and read things. I remember the Dean of the Cathedral in a sermon in 1997 taking about how this one man he knew was so damaged by his earthly father it was impossible for him to call God father indeed hearing God referred to as father for him brought traumatic flash backs of his own earthly father who frequently violently forced his face in the toilet bowl while he flushed it. His lens was so damaged that to have god as loving parent he needed to excise father. There are times when we who are not female may need to be reminded how a text has been used to oppress or how a text's subtle implication is ignored because it is more feminine. When I for example read the africa bible commentary I occasionally feel it is out in left field but more often than not i do get valuable insights i know i would miss as a CisGendered white male in North America.

Here is a sample of wisdom:

Psalm 46

Imagining a World without War

  Psalm 46:1–11  

To the leader. Of the Korahites.

According to Alamoth. A Song.

1God is our refuge and strength,

a very present help in trouble.

2Therefore we will not fear, though the earth should change,

though the mountains shake in the heart of the sea;

3though its waters roar and foam,

though the mountains tremble with its tumult.Selah

4There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,

the holy habitation of the Most High.

5God is in the midst of the city; it shall not be moved;

God will help it when the morning dawns.

6The nations are in an uproar, the kingdoms totter;

he utters his voice, the earth melts.

7The LORD of hosts is with us;

the God of Jacob is our refuge.Selah

8Come, behold the works of the LORD;

see what desolations he has brought on the earth.

9He makes wars cease to the end of the earth;

he breaks the bow, and shatters the spear;

he burns the shields with fire.

10“Be still, and know that I am God!

I am exalted among the nations,

I am exalted in the earth.”

11The LORD of hosts is with us;

the God of Jacob is our refuge.Selah

     

 

In the midst of the cosmic and human chaos of Psalm 46, the voice of Israel’s warrior God melts the earth and brings war to a halt. Rabbinic interpreters saw the battles preceding the Messianic Age in the poetry of Psalm 46. Martin Luther used the imagery of this psalm to sing of Jesus’ battle against the Prince of Darkness in the hymn “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.” The very first verse of the psalm, however, describes God as “our refuge [מחסה] and strength.” Though “refuge” can be a military term (e.g., Isa 25:12), here it communicates trust in God, who is affirmed as a reliable “helper” (עזרה, vv. 1, 5).1 “Refuge” is almost “a one-word refrain” in books 1 and 2 of the Psalter.2 The primary theme of protection and trust is picked up again in the refrain of vv. 7 and 11, in which ‏משגב‎ (protected high spot) is used for “refuge.” The context of this refuge is not battle and war, as the rabbis and Luther’s hymn would have it, but rather the end of war and the destruction of weapons, as Psalm 46:9 asserts. This is good news for women, children, and men everywhere.

Many classify Psalm 46 as a song of Zion, though no explicit mention is made of Jerusalem or Zion (a frequent poetic name for Jerusalem and for the temple mount area); other possible Zion psalms include 46, 48, 76, 84, 87, 122, and 132. Psalm 46 can be divided into three sections marked by ‏סלה‎ (a technical term indicating a pause) in vv. 3, 7, and 11 and by the refrain in vv. 7 and 11 (probably missing after v. 3). Repetition of the word “earth” (‏ארץ‎) ties the sections together (vv. 2, 6, 8, 9, 10) and suggests God’s universal sovereignty. The psalm moves from chaos in nature (vv. 1–3) to chaos in history (vv. 4–7) to universal peace (vv. 8–11).

The first section claims that the agitated earth, mountains, and sea cannot cause fear because God is refuge. These verses show that confidence in God “is rooted in creation,” both the creation of the world from the “deep” (Gen 1) and the creation of Israel, which passed through the waters of the Reed Sea (Exod 15).3 Mountains “shake” (‏מוט‎) or “totter” in v. 2, recalling God’s theophany on Sinai (Exod 19:18; Ps 68:7–8). Waters “roar” (‏המה‎) in v. 3, but “we will not fear.” These verbs are repeated in the second section, tying the two sections together. In v. 6 the kingdoms “totter” (‏מוט‎) and the nations “are in an uproar” (‏המה‎). The NRSV translation obscures the repetition by using different translations of the same verb. We can imagine the worst in this “ancient version of a modern doomsday scenario,” but since God is with us and reigns over all, it will not happen.4 The word “strength” in v. 1 (עז, also “power,” “fortress”) is used often in psalms that proclaim God’s reign and control (enthronement psalms 29:1; 93:1; 96:7; 99:4); such a God brings joy and comfort to the entire created order.

Amid all this chaos and movement sits “the city of God” in v. 4; there God is present. This city, Zion, is the “still point”5 of Psalm 46. As “the holy habitation of the Most High,” it is the capital of God’s realm and site of God’s temple (see Pss 48:1, 2, 8; 87:3). The mountains and nations may “totter” or “shake,” but this city “shall not be moved.”6 Verse 5 uses the same verb, מט, as in vv. 2 and 6 to drive home the contrast, though the NRSV translation again obscures the repetition. Zion is stable because of God’s presence and the presence of God’s agent on earth, the king (see Pss 2:6–7; 89:19–37). The river whose streams gladden the city of God (v. 4) reinforces this sense of stability. Here the ambivalent value of water seen in Psalm 42–43 again appears. Water is an agent of joy and sustaining power for those inside the city but a symbol of chaos for those outside it. This is “no ordinary channel; it is uniquely a sanctuary stream, one that issues forth from God’s holy residence.”7 This river in God’s city evokes several associations: with the river that flowed out of Eden to water the garden in Genesis 2:10–14; the river flowing from the temple in Ezekiel 47:1–12; and the river flowing from the throne of God, which has replaced the temple in Revelation 22:1–12.

The underside of Zion as symbol of order and security for society is that it functions rhetorically to support the established political and cultic hierarchies there as immutable and divine. If Jerusalem is the symbol of security and refuge, then Jerusalem’s rulers can argue that public life is in order; such “propaganda” allows no criticism.8 As Coogan argues, “In the royal Judean ideology … deity, king, and city were linked.”9 Zion was thought to be inviolable because it was chosen as the dwelling place of both God and the Davidic king (Isa 37:35). One must ask how Jerusalem’s leaders dealt with women, children, and the poor in service to this ideology, given repeated prophetic criticism of their economic policies.

The use of “LORD of hosts” as a title for God in the refrain of vv. 7 and 11 sets up expectations about God that are subverted in the third section of the psalm. The title “LORD of hosts” suggests that God is both divine king and warrior. “Hosts” refers to Israel’s armies (1 Sam 17:45); God is enthroned invisibly in the ark of the covenant and accompanies Israel into battle (Num 10:35–36). “Hosts” also refers to the heavenly army of angelic beings who do God’s bidding (Ps 89:6–8); the prophetic texts use this title often (e.g., Isa 6:3). Connected with the metaphor of the Warrior King is the destructive power of the divine voice; the Warrior King speaks and “the earth melts” (v. 6; cp. Pss 18:7–15; 29). Marc Brettler argues that God as warrior is prominent not only in Psalms 18, 24, and 68 but occurs in three-quarters of the psalms; it is a central metaphor for God complemented in Psalm 46 by the use of “refuge” as fortress protection. Verse 8 commands nature and nations to behold “desolations” this Warrior King God has brought. The word for “desolations” (שמות) occurs only here in the form of a plural of intensity, showing that divine power is greater than human power to destroy. Instead of the expected list of God’s destructive actions, however, this command is followed by the surprising declaration in v. 9 that God “makes wars cease” and destroys all the weapons of war. This warrior wages peace10 and “is superlative in this role.”11 We are surprised by this usage, perhaps because we can no longer imagine a world without war. The outrage expressed by some toward John Lennon’s song “Imagine” comes to mind in this connection.

The security Psalm 46 imagines is based on God’s stabilizing, nurturing presence rather than weaponry and war. Throughout human time, war has cruelly victimized women and children. Nowhere is this more clear than in Judges 4–5, the story of the judge Deborah, the Kenite woman Jael, and the mother of Sisera, the Canaanite general against whom Deborah urges Israel to battle. Jael must become a “seductive killer” (5:24) to survive, and the worried mother awaiting her general son’s return assumes that he is gathering spoils of war: “a womb, two wombs” (5:30). She reduces the women of the enemy to their reproductive organs as she envisions their rape. These women “approve of or commit violent acts to help their men to become victorious. They serve a patriarchal agenda and do not seek its subversion.”12 Psalm 46 makes this kind of dehumanizing relationship among sisters unnecessary. Nations are to drop their weapons and stop warring, as God commands in 46:10: “Be still, and know that I am God!” The NRSV translation misses the point of God’s action; “desist” might better express what is at stake (the word is the hiphil of רפה, “leave off, abandon, stop”).

  Women and War  

      Psalm 46 beckons us to reflect on the immeasurable and generational suffering experienced by women of color because of the brutal, inhumane “war” of slavery, servitude, patriarchy, and machismo.13 This “war” is fought with the weaponry of marginalization and oppression and dehumanizes its victims. Psalm 46 proclaims that “God is our refuge.” How is “refuge” experienced for African, Latina, African American, or Caribbean women who continue to be classified as ugly creatures and as property, solely because of their racial heritage? God’s refuge is not simply comfort for these women while they are ravaged by war. Rather, God’s refuge is the end of war and the destruction of dehumanizing weapons.  

      Exploited, despised poor women of color, Shawn Copeland suggests, are the new anthropological subject.14 When oppressors acknowledge this, they can then recognize and affirm the human dignity of God’s precious creation, which also bears the imprint of God, the imago Dei. “The realization of humanity … of personhood … rooted in religious, intellectual, and moral conversion”15 is refuge that facilitates the cessation of war. This realization challenges oppressors to destroy their weapons of war—racism, sexism, classism. Then and only then will women of color experience holistically God’s healing refuge, so that the spiritual, emotional, and psychological wounds of battle may heal.  

  Audrey Coretta Price  

 

For God to be “exalted” (v. 10), nations must stop their violence toward one another and toward their own people. Only then will the entire cosmos join in worship and exaltation of the One who is the only source of security. Will we recognize God’s sovereignty or not? Yet one wonders whether Psalm 46 intends a universal peace. As Schaefer16 argues, the refrain in vv. 7 and 11 is structured as a chiasm in an A/B//B*/A* pattern: A: Lord of hosts / B: (is) with us // B*: a refuge for us / A*: (is) the God of Jacob. The word “us,” referring to Israel, is encompassed by God in God’s role as Warrior King and God of a particular people. This particularism is echoed by Jesus, “God with us”/Immanuel (Matt 1:23), who becomes the new manifestation of God’s presence as he preaches the reign or kingdom of God (Luke 4:14–15). We are confronted with the tension between the universal and the particular in both texts.

Notes

1. See also Pss 10:14; 22:19; 28:7; 30:10; 33:20; 37:40. God sought such a “helper” for the man in the garden of Eden in Gen 2; she was to be for him an עזר כנגדו, “a companion corresponding to it” or “counterpart” in a relationship of mutuality and trust. Phyllis Trible, God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1978), 88–90.

2. J. Clinton McCann Jr., “The Book of Psalms,” in The New Interpreter’s Bible, vol. 4 (Nashville, TN: Abingdon Press, 1996), 639–1280, at 864. This word appears twenty-four times in books 1 and 2, beginning in Ps 2:12.

3. Peter Craigie, Psalms 1–50 (Waco, TX: Word Books, 1983), 344–45.

4. McCann, “The Book of Psalms,” 865.

5. Konrad Schaefer, Psalms, Berit Olam (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 2001), 116.

6. Peter L. Trudinger, “Friend or Foe? Earth, Sea and Chaoskampf in the Psalms,” in The Earth Story in the Psalms and the Prophets, ed. Norman C. Habel (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2001), 29–41, argues that the Chaoskampf pattern (the battle between godSleep and forces of chaos represented by water-beings), which so many scholars see in poetic texts as a borrowing from the Enuma Elish creation story, is secondary in the Zion psalms. The Zion tradition “gives a central role to a place, not a battle” (p. 40). This frees the Earth and its components from their hostile stance against God’s order and allows for free response to God.

7. William P. Brown, Seeing the Psalms: A Theology of Metaphor (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox, 2002), 117. See Ps 87:7.

8. Robert D. Miller II, “The Origin of the Zion Hymns,” in The Composition of the Book of Psalms, ed. Erich Zenger (Leuven: Peeters, 2010), 667–76.

9. Michael D. Coogan, The Old Testament: A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2006), 278.

10. McCann, “The Book of Psalms,” 866.

11. Marc Brettler, “Images of YHWH the Warrior in Psalms,” Semeia 61 (1993): 135–65, at 145. See also God’s staff used to comfort rather than strike in Ps 23:4.

12. Susanne Scholz, “Judges,” in Women’s Bible Commentary, ed. Carol A. Newsom, Sharon H. Ringe, and Jacqueline E. Lapsley, 3rd ed. (Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox, 2012), 113–27, at 118.

13. This cultural mind-set is found, inter alia, in Latino/a communities founded on patriarchy and male leadership in society and the household. Women are subjugated to the status of subservient and voiceless members of society who serve their men and maintain their households under the leadership of that patriarch.

14. M. Shawn Copeland, Enfleshing Freedom: Body, Race, and Being (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2010), 93.

15. Ibid., 92.

16. Schaefer, Psalms, 116.

Denise Dombkowski Hopkins, Psalms Books 2-3, vol. 21 of Wisdom Commentary. Accordance electronic ed. (Collegeville: Liturgical Press, 2016), 35-40.

https://accordance.bible/link/read/Wisdom_Commentary-16#11563

 

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 17 2019 2:32 PM

Hello Dan:

Thanks for posting the portion of the commentary for review.  I don't want to elaborate too much on it, as I fear we will not see eye to eye and take the conversation in a direction that is outside of this forum's permissible discussions. (I TRY to follow the rules... :) ) I just wanted to clarify that I didn't say (or mean to give the impression) that I think all feminists are angry and that they all read through the lens of anger.  As I stated, my daughter classifies herself as a feminist, and she's not angry. Her "feminists" statements make absolute sense to me.   But, many feminists do appear to have an ax to grind and so they come off as angry quite often.  Second, as I expressed above, good hermeneutics charges us to not bring our own biases to the text when we read it, right?  We are to come to the text without presuppositions (as best as possible Wink , so in writing a commentary wherein the authors CHOOSE a feminist lens (or non-feminist lens, for that fact) automatically presents a bias.  When we approach the text and allow GOD to show us what HE thinks about feminism or non-feminism, THEN I'm ready to listen.  But to approach ALL the text through a feminist lens is not what I have learned to be solid hermeneutics.

Praying His blessings to you and yours,

Cynthia

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 267
Roger Dittmar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 17 2019 3:20 PM

Denise:
I like new perspective, added info not normally considered, etc

Yes

About two years ago I started assembling a collection of resources solely by women authors tagged as “Bible Commentary” by Logos. With the addition of the two that went live today the collection now numbers 138. Viewpoint has not been a consideration.   Except for the apocrypha, the collection finally covers every book of the Bible.  This represents just 3% of the 4,700 resources labeled as Bible commentaries in the catalog.

 

The Wisdom Commentary series will eventually cover every book of the Bible, including the apocrypha, in 58 volumes.  Of the eighty-plus scholarly contributors, more than seventy are women.

 

I very much look forward to seeing their work in my search results. Again, thank you Faithlife for making available this unique set of resources.

Posts 10107
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 17 2019 4:42 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
Denise, I hope you come back and let us know what you think of it once you have finished reading.

Well, now!  You'd be a good poker player, smilingly calling someone's bluff (I'm joking).

As strange as it may seem, with my purchase, I'm hoping to help with 2nd Temple analysis. That probably sounds pretty bizarre. But I keep running into early jewish writers who were quite mystified by dissonances in the OT. And just looking at some of the commentary samples, the issues are very similar. And indeed, in Sunday morning Bible class, again, the same hands up, and our pastor making another run at it.

We shall see ... I really hate to call in a refund, so I'm hopeful!


Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 17 2019 6:47 PM

Denise:

Cynthia in Florida:
Denise, I hope you come back and let us know what you think of it once you have finished reading.

Well, now!  You'd be a good poker player, smilingly calling someone's bluff (I'm joking).

As strange as it may seem, with my purchase, I'm hoping to help with 2nd Temple analysis. That probably sounds pretty bizarre. But I keep running into early jewish writers who were quite mystified by dissonances in the OT. And just looking at some of the commentary samples, the issues are very similar. And indeed, in Sunday morning Bible class, again, the same hands up, and our pastor making another run at it.

We shall see ... I really hate to call in a refund, so I'm hopeful!

LOL!!  I actually really do want to know your thoughts.  I have much respect for you, so your review of it will be an interesting read for me!  😁

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 2
Kelvin44 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 12:45 AM

Thanks for sharing this info. Its helped to me.

Posts 569
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 9:18 AM

Thanks Denise for the information.

I usually disregard groups, authors, and / or currents that place too much emphasis on Sophia, as it is a supposed female deity that occult groups worship, and that sell to the novice as a personification of a concept.

Now, in the review the reviewer posts:

"While the influence of wisdom literature on Hebrews cannot be denied (as evidenced in the prologue), I suspect its influence has been overemphasized in this commentary due to the authors’ interest in depicting Jesus as the embodiment of the divine Sophia."

The above is interesting, as to my understanding Wisdom was with God at the beginning of creation and a good conjecture is that it was pre-incarnate Jesus (maybe as the Angel of Yahweh), and that many people of God have identified with the "Master Workman" described in Proverbs 8.

So trying to find out what the feminist author makes of the relation of Sophia and Jesus is worth investigating.

Remember that even though Proverbs says that whoever finds Wisdom finds life, all true Christians know that life is only found in Jesus Christ, not a Sophia of any kind, much less a personified false deity.

Another interesting point that could make the series worth, is that different specialized biological roles historically, have allowed the  genders to perceive different things that are important from their point of view in their particular contexts.

So it is good to read criticism of perceived concepts and thrusts in the Bible, to check and see if we males have overlooked an important angle.

[Abuse is not prescribed in the Bible Isaiah 58:6, injustice and exploitation is not a part of Godly love, charity, mercy and the like. Submission does not imply abuse of dignity, etc.]

The reference in the review about child abuse, is kind of funny, because not taking God at face value for what He warned about (like Eve did) is probably a contributory cause to the fall in which the possibility of such abuse begun [there was no abuse before the fall].  Maybe the first couple abused God by violating His established moral order.

If created beings blatantly disregard the moral order ingrained in God's created order, of course that dire consequences will ensue (first of all death). 

So when Jesus says that He lays His life down voluntarily John 10:17-18, to save the created beings, is the utmost sacrifice in unconditional love, that truly shows who God in reality is: merciful, and forgiving, willing to go the extra mile to save us from ourselves and our selfish motives.

To fix the problem of the fall, the decree against us had to be removed: Colossians 2:13-14, and that we are all fallen and redeemed, maybe is part of the plan so that no one can boast in front of God.

When the ruling and only will is God's, all created order works perfectly. Any time a creature wants to assert his / her will over God's, is when troubles start. Is that lesson too hard to learn? for some probably yes.

I am undecided to order the series, but has made me want to know more about christian feminism. Is it a heterogeneous movement, do they have agreed doctrine, are they considered within the orthodox envelope? or is it as varied as the different denominations in western Christianity, do you know?

Thanks again for bringing the info to the forum.

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 9:44 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
I don't want to elaborate too much on it, as I fear we will not see eye to eye and take the conversation in a direction that is outside of this forum's permissible discussions. (I TRY to follow the rules... :)

Understand and i do realize this series is not going to be for everyone. over all I have found it very insightful and useful. I would just encourage people to not be afraid and taking advantage of the Logos 30 day return policy to give it a fair shake as to weather it could be useful for them. I do realize that for some it is not going to be useful for them.

-dan

Posts 10107
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 10:04 AM

Hamilton Ramos:

I am undecided to order the series, but has made me want to know more about christian feminism. Is it a heterogeneous movement, do they have agreed doctrine, are they considered within the orthodox envelope? or is it as varied as the different denominations in western Christianity, do you know?

Thanks again for bringing the info to the forum.

Well, being a tiny bit familiar with your beliefs, this one's not for you. Just being realistic.

Feminists actually describe most women. Masculinists, most men. Naturally. Perspective is not by accident.  Most men aren't looking for a masculine lady. Ditto the reverse for women.

The difference is at the extremes. When you read some early judaism resources (male), you'll see those extremes. So also, recent 'feminists'. I kind of scan over both, if there's value to be had. The problem is 'value to be had'.

Just to illustrate my earlier comment to Cynthia, judaism (at least some versions) were absolutely locked in on 'the binding of Isaac'. And it proceeded for several centuries. Modern day critics return to the same issue, and I suspect these type issues will repeat with new participant groups. 

A different example is Judges (luckily, this collection includes Judges). First, you destroy all mitochondria from the tribe of Benjamin. Then you capture a bunch of virgins to repair the damage. How so?


Posts 569
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 5:01 PM

Denise:

judaism (at least some versions) were absolutely locked in on 'the binding of Isaac'. And it proceeded for several centuries. Modern day critics return to the same issue, and I suspect these type issues will repeat with new participant groups. 

A different example is Judges (luckily, this collection includes Judges). First, you destroy all mitochondria from the tribe of Benjamin. Then you capture a bunch of virgins to repair the damage. How so?

People keep talking about context, but conveniently leave it out when it gives clue to the real problem, and that points to the root cause of the problem.

Baal, Moloch, and other cults had some strange practices (Asherah cult was close to Baal's in the fire from heaven story). It was not uncommon for unsaved persons to sacrifice what they valued more to a supposed deity to secure favor, fair following winds, survival, etc.

God was testing Abraham. What was deep in Abraham's heart needed to be shown in real life. Abraham was sure that His God was not asking for the unthinkable for no reason, and he was sure that God would solve the dilemma if obedience and faith (needed for leadership in God's things) were exercised.

Of course the killing was not allowed by God, and never ever did God ask for an actual killing of babies, like many other cults following false deities and demons do.

Was it psychological terrifying to Isaac? probably, but life back then was brutal, precisely because was in a fallen situation.

It is human will that wants to be in control over God's will that causes all the trouble.

Benjamin tribe is a curious case, but we are not omniscient to really know what happened. Why would supposedly followers of Yahweh do such brutality to a female that was in the related big group? Maybe they were fake believers not walking their talk.

Many things in the Bible were written to be examples to us. By their fruit you will know who is who. Would turn the eye the other way to abuse could get you in the improper believer club? maybe.

We are not supposed to be talking about this here. I wrote just so there was a comparison of perceptions about certain events. I try not to write such things, but I cannot stand when supposedly believers question the character and nature of God, as over all, God is good and His h:hesed is forever.

All was perfect before created beings decided to supplant God. Any group or person trying to do is doomed to failure, because no creature has aseity nor creative power as God does.

Tares and Wheats, could what Christ described as the true underlying reality in a fallen situation be true? and if there are Tares infiltrated in the true flock, what are real sheep to do about it?

Not with armies, but with Holy Spirit, the tares are not to be allowed to take control be male or female, and not by killing, but by God's power.

Old struggle stays, means and rules of engagement change.

Non-expert opinion of course, for purely further research, reflection and sharing of insights purpose alone.

Posts 569
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 5:03 PM

Denise:

judaism (at least some versions) were absolutely locked in on 'the binding of Isaac'. And it proceeded for several centuries. Modern day critics return to the same issue, and I suspect these type issues will repeat with new participant groups. 

A different example is Judges (luckily, this collection includes Judges). First, you destroy all mitochondria from the tribe of Benjamin. Then you capture a bunch of virgins to repair the damage. How so?

People keep talking about context, but conveniently leave it out when it gives clue to the real problem, and that points to the root cause of the problem.

Baal, Moloch, and other cults had some strange practices (Asherah cult was close to Baal's in the fire from heaven story). It was not uncommon for unsaved persons to sacrifice what they valued more to a supposed deity to secure favor, fair following winds, survival, etc.

God was testing Abraham. What was deep in Abraham's heart needed to be shown in real life. Abraham was sure that His God was not asking for the unthinkable for no reason, and he was sure that God would solve the dilemma if obedience and faith (needed for leadership in God's things) were exercised.

Of course the killing was not allowed by God, and never ever did God asked for an actual killing of babies, like many other cults following false deities and demons do.

Was it psychological terrifying to Isaac? probably, but life back then was brutal, precisely because was in a fallen situation.

It is human will that wants to be in control over God's will that causes all the trouble.

Benjamin tribe is a curious case, but we are not omniscient to really know what happened. Why would supposedly followers of Yahweh do such brutality to a female that was in the related big group? Maybe they were fake believers not walking their talk.

Many things in the Bible were written to be examples to us. By their fruit you will know who is who. Would turn the eye the other way to abuse could get you in the improper believer club? maybe.

We are not supposed to be talking about this here. I wrote just so there was a comparison of perceptions about certain events. I try not to write such things, but I cannot stand when supposedly believers question the character and nature of God, as overall, God is good and His h:hesed is forever.

All was perfect before created beings decided to supplant God. Any group or person trying to do is doomed to failure, because no creature has aseity nor creative power as God does.

Tares and Wheats, could what Christ described as the true underlying reality in a fallen situation be true? and if there are Tares infiltrated in the true flock, what are real sheep to do about it?

Not with armies, but with Holy Spirit, the tares are not to be allowed to take control be male or female, and not by killing, but by God's power.

Old struggle stays, means and rules of engagement change.

Non-expert opinion of course, for purely further research, reflection and sharing of insights purpose alone.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 7:02 PM

Can I just share an epiphany I had?   I am DEAD SERIOUS about this.  It literally JUST hit me right between the eyes for the first time in my life.  Here it is.  I have always believed that wisdom and knowledge are good things---more is great. "Knowledge is power," yada, yada, yada.  Well, I've decided that God is SO good to me.  He has protected me from too much knowledge...too much wisdom.  He had kept my head in balance with what my heart can stand.  I know, mumble jumble stuff, but I understand what I mean, and so does God.  I am, truly and with all sincerity, for the very first time in my life, content with my level of intelligence.  Just bragging on my God...

Peace,

Cynthia

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 569
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 7:20 PM

Cynthia, I know you probably did not write for me, but it highlights a key point:

Very good, and there is the true sheep status, knowing our own limitations in front of an awesome God.

He wants us to trust, obey, and walk humbly with Him, He will take care of the rest.

My problem is with persons that think (sometime rightly) that we ought to do things because God will not come and do it for us.

To an extent I agree, but we definitively need the input of God to properly decide what to act on and how.

See the Tares at times think they are so smart, that they do not need God or His input to take care of business, and huge mistakes ensue, that many times get innocents in trouble.

The delusion of the supremacy of the creature is what is at the heart of the Tare, faithful to that delusion from their evil father.

The antichrist will sit in the Ezekiel temple and say: I am God (exactly what Heyleel wanted to do from the beginning) in the former, Jesus Christ will kill him, in the second case, it will be cast to the lake of fire.

Not so great destiny. Problem is that in between their final destiny, they will want to deceive the elected ones to worship such failed system.

Creature do not have aseity, and will never have. Creatures do not have creative powers like God, and will never have apart from Him.

Our job is to not fall for their folly. And to side with the true winner: Jesus Christ.

Peace and grace.

Posts 10107
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 18 2019 7:56 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
I am, truly and with all sincerity, for the very first time in my life, content with my level of intelligence.

Well, duh. Smiling. First, you've always been very intelligent. From up above, a gift. You're a leader. But more importantly, the folks that sat on the hillside, forgetting their lunch box, amazed by Jesus didn't need a whole lot of interesting information. Believe, he said.


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