HALOT dosent show in lema search.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 4:57 PM

Damian McGrath:

George Somsel:
The morphology in BHS is incorrect.  It is a noun with 1 c sg suff.

 

George are you sure? In a third-heh noun, wouldn't the Heh be replaced by a tav - רָעָתִי.  

Doesn't the holem tell us that this is the participial form?

Certainly not in this case above all.  If the heh were replaced by a tau with hireq-yod as the pronominal suffix we would then see

רָעָתִי
which would be "my evil."  This is most certainly derived from a participial form of  רעה as  is not uncommon, but it is a noun rather than a participle.  Cf. Ps 18.3 יְהוָה׀ סַֽלְעִי "Yahweh is my rock..."

 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 4:58 PM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
The morphology in BHS is incorrect.  It is a noun with 1 c sg suff.

Okay, I'm trying to learn this stuff - what would distinguish the participle from the noun?

Usage

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 5:16 PM

George Somsel:

Certainly not in this case above all.  If the heh were replaced by a tau with hireq-yod as the pronominal suffix we would then see

רָעָתִי

which would be "my evil." 

So it is. Don't know what I was thinking there.

How do you explain the Holem if not by the participial form?

 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 5:33 PM

Damian McGrath:

George Somsel:

Certainly not in this case above all.  If the heh were replaced by a tau with hireq-yod as the pronominal suffix we would then see

רָעָתִי

which would be "my evil." 

So it is. Don't know what I was thinking there.

How do you explain the Holem if not by the participial form?

 

 

It originates in the participial form, but is not used as a participle.  Take English as an example. 

I called an exterminator who is killing the bugs.  Participle

Killing is generally discouraged.  Noun.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 5:33 PM

Got it now George. I think.

 

The origin would be the participle, but it has been substantivised with usage. It has the same form as a participle but is, in fact a noun.

 

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 5:35 PM

Thanks George.  I was obviously writing my reply as you wrote yours.

It appears that the morphology is incorrect for this noun throughout the OT.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 6:30 PM

George Somsel:

It originates in the participial form, but is not used as a participle.  Take English as an example. 

I called an exterminator who is killing the bugs.  Participle

Killing is generally discouraged.  Noun.

They are both participles in a sense (at least according to those in Oxford Smile):

participle /pɑːˈtɪsɪp(ə)l/
■ a word formed from a verb (e.g. going, gone, being, been) and used as an adjective or noun (as in burnt toast, good breeding) or used to make compound verb forms (is going, has been).
Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th ed. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2004).

Perhaps that definition is too generous, but grammar has never been an exact science.

In English grammar, "Breeding" or "killing" is also known as a gerund in those usages, but they still use the present participial form.  Perhaps that's why Logos morph has "pure noun particle" to make it clear since the form and the usage don't coincide.

I guess Hebrew grammar doesn't use the word "gerund" as English does (as I know no Hebrew)? (after checking wikipedia, I see that gerund means different things depending on the language)

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 7:05 PM

Todd Phillips:

In English grammar, "Breeding" or "killing" is also known as a gerund in those usages, but they still use the present participial form.  Perhaps that's why Logos morph has "pure noun particle" to make it clear since the form and the usage don't coincide.

I guess Hebrew grammar doesn't use the word "gerund" as English does (as I know no Hebrew)? (after checking wikipedia, I see that gerund means different things depending on the language)

As I stated, it is derived from the participle.  Its usage, however, is that of a noun. 

You're right, Hebrew doesn't use the word "gerund."  It does, however use γερουσία. [זִקְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֗לWink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 7:59 PM

Seems to me that we may be failing to distinguish between functional classification and morphological classification. Although I've been less than successful at finding a coherent list of functional parts of speech in Hebrew,

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 8:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

Seems to me that we may be failing to distinguish between functional classification and morphological classification. Although I've been less than successful at finding a coherent list of functional parts of speech in Hebrew,

That's true enough though I am attempting to operate on a functional basis.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 26
Apostle Dr. Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 8:43 PM

Well I have learn since I asked the original question. I am not a Hebrew student but it gets very interesting because this Psalm from my study is also filled with what is called imperfect verbs which makes the action continuous. As "shepherd" action: to feed, continues every things becomes fluid. Shall not want because we are continuously been shepherd "feed".

This begins to show us a different type of shepherd "noun" form what we know. It shows how we should allow ourselves to shepherd and how we should in turn shepherd.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 8:58 PM

Patrick Williams:
what is called imperfect verbs which makes the action continuous.

Others may correct me as my Hebrew is nearly non-existent, but generally the perfect means "completed from the perspective of the speaker/writer" and imperfect means "incomplete or progressive from the perspective of the speaker/writer". The verb aspect is not from the perspective of the reader. I assume this holds for Hebrew as well.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 8:59 PM

George Somsel:
I am attempting to operate on a functional basis.

That is what I assumed; to me "participle" is not a functional term ... never used it in a tree chart except at the morphological level.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 13 2010 9:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

Patrick Williams:
what is called imperfect verbs which makes the action continuous.

Others may correct me as my Hebrew is nearly non-existent, but generally the perfect means "completed from the perspective of the speaker/writer" and imperfect means "incomplete or progressive from the perspective of the speaker/writer". The verb aspect is not from the perspective of the reader. I assume this holds for Hebrew as well.

Your understanding is correct.  I should note that this does not necessarily represent the way that the writer experienced any events but rather the manner in which he chooses to present them.  It's like the case of the many jokes about an event in a bar where he begins with "a man went into a bar" then continues with "he says ..."  It's not that we are to understand that the action is continuing but rather that he chooses the present tense to convey the impression of an ongoing dialogue.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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