Please stop pushing NT Wright

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 8:04 AM

SineNomine:

It's a start, but what's really needed is "The God Delusion", "God is not Great", "Misquoting Jesus" etc.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 522
Fasil | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 8:29 AM

I wish I can hear from FL  what their stance is on getting Bart Ehrman’s books here in FL stores. 

Posts 10114
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 8:51 AM

Fasil:

I wish I can hear from FL  what their stance is on getting Bart Ehrman’s books here in FL stores. 

He's too popular and well respected. We already agreed Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic). There's clearly a fine line here.  It's like Pharisee signs vs Jesus signs. False-teachers' mighty works vs Paul's mighty works.


Posts 39
Chi Shun Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 9:30 AM

"Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic)" - AGREED Big Smile

I don't understand why people like N.T. Wright when he is N.T. Wrong (New Testament Wrong) Stick out tongue

Posts 9962
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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 11:07 AM

Joseph Turner:
I don't want Faithlife deciding for me what is heretical or not.  For instance, I would take Wright over MacArthur any day, but I don't expect them to stop selling MacArthur

Same here. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 3658
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 1:11 PM

Chi Shun Cheung:

"Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic)" - AGREED Big Smile

I don't understand why people like N.T. Wright when he is N.T. Wrong (New Testament Wrong) Stick out tongue

As someone who knows Wright personally, I can say the following:

  1. While I do not claim to have a handle on or agree with all his views (he writes faster than I read), I can assure you that he is very devout and only ever seek to promote faith, discipleship, and the kingdom of God. I can vouch for that without any hesitation. As a side note, I brushed shoulder with Wright (ill-reputed among many Evangelicals) and a number of very Evangelical scholars. Of those, only one impressed me positively with his faith, humility, and prayerfulness, and I don't speak of the latter group. 
  2. Whatever you end up thinking about his views, you can benefit from reading him in that you will learn to read the NT in its first-century Jewish and Greco-Roman context (as opposed to reading it as if written for 21st century people, usually Western in culture and lifestyle). As Paul would say: hang on to the good and toss the bad.
  3. Wright is trying hard to make sense of the Lord Jesus and the apostles' message in light of what God has done and announced previously (what he calls the metanarrative of Scripture). This is far superior than the piecemeal approach to messianic prophecy, interest in predictions of future events, or current hermeneutics of discontinuity, dispensationalism, or backreading Reformed theology in the OT (so-called "Christ-centered" interpretation). If you can make it through the tedium of long reviews of the history of scholarship, you should find much to learn about the ancient world and many questions to ponder as to how this may inform how we should understand what was said, done, and written in the NT.

My two cents for what they're worth. Peace and blessings to all who love the Lord out of a pure heart.

Posts 10114
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 1:25 PM

Francis:
This is far superior than the piecemeal approach to messianic prophecy, interest in predictions of future events, or current hermeneutics of discontinuity, dispensationalism, or backreading Reformed theology in the OT (so-called "Christ-centered" interpretation).

Now, now. Many wrongs don't make a Wright. 

And for my terrible, opportunistic, and badly combined comment:

https://www.logos.com/product/184212/the-new-testament-in-its-world-an-introduction-to-the-history-literature-and-theology-of-the-first-christians 

This is interesting, since Bird signs on. Per the resource write-up, it summarizes much of Wright's writings.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 1:48 PM

Jan Krohn:
We need Ehrman, but also Dawkins, Hitchens etc. in order to understand the errors in their reasoning.

It has been my experience that people such as Ehrman, Dawkins, and Hitchens have much more sound reasoning than their Christian counterparts - there are a few groups of seminarians that receive a solid education in reasoning but most do not and it shows. The difference between Christians and Ehrman et. al. is in (a) a misunderstanding of what the logic of science has as it aim (abductive logic aims for "best fit" not "truth") and (b) the presuppositions they take as "givens" most notably their confidence that we know "everything" and we'll not look as foolish in 500 years as our ancestors.

However, I strongly agree their work should be in Logos so that we can understand their arguments.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 522
Fasil | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 3:33 PM

MJ. Smith:

Jan Krohn:
We need Ehrman, but also Dawkins, Hitchens etc. in order to understand the errors in their reasoning.

It has been my experience that people such as Ehrman, Dawkins, and Hitchens have much more sound reasoning than their Christian counterparts - there are a few groups of seminarians that receive a solid education in reasoning but most do not and it shows. The difference between Christians and Ehrman et. al. is in (a) a misunderstanding of what the logic of science has as it aim (abductive logic aims for "best fit" not "truth") and (b) the presuppositions they take as "givens" most notably their confidence that we know "everything" and we'll not look as foolish in 500 years as our ancestors.

However, I strongly agree their work should be in Logos so that we can understand their arguments.

"However, I strongly agree their work should be in Logos so that we can understand their arguments." MJ. Smith

Correct !

Their works need to be available for those who want to read their works.

Posts 4911
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 3:42 PM

A very valuable 2 Cents Francis. We often get so caging up in our view of their view that we loose sight of the person.

Francis:

Chi Shun Cheung:

"Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic)" - AGREED Big Smile

I don't understand why people like N.T. Wright when he is N.T. Wrong (New Testament Wrong) Stick out tongue

As someone who knows Wright personally, I can say the following:

  1. While I do not claim to have a handle on or agree with all his views (he writes faster than I read), I can assure you that he is very devout and only ever seek to promote faith, discipleship, and the kingdom of God. I can vouch for that without any hesitation. As a side note, I brushed shoulder with Wright (ill-reputed among many Evangelicals) and a number of very Evangelical scholars. Of those, only one impressed me positively with his faith, humility, and prayerfulness, and I don't speak of the latter group. 
  2. Whatever you end up thinking about his views, you can benefit from reading him in that you will learn to read the NT in its first-century Jewish and Greco-Roman context (as opposed to reading it as if written for 21st century people, usually Western in culture and lifestyle). As Paul would say: hang on to the good and toss the bad.
  3. Wright is trying hard to make sense of the Lord Jesus and the apostles' message in light of what God has done and announced previously (what he calls the metanarrative of Scripture). This is far superior than the piecemeal approach to messianic prophecy, interest in predictions of future events, or current hermeneutics of discontinuity, dispensationalism, or backreading Reformed theology in the OT (so-called "Christ-centered" interpretation). If you can make it through the tedium of long reviews of the history of scholarship, you should find much to learn about the ancient world and many questions to ponder as to how this may inform how we should understand what was said, done, and written in the NT.

My two cents for what they're worth. Peace and blessings to all who love the Lord out of a pure heart.

Posts 431
Brad | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 10:38 PM

MJ. Smith:

It has been my experience that people such as Ehrman, Dawkins, and Hitchens have much more sound reasoning than their Christian counterparts - there are a few groups of seminarians that receive a solid education in reasoning but most do not and it shows. The difference between Christians and Ehrman et. al. is in (a) a misunderstanding of what the logic of science has as it aim (abductive logic aims for "best fit" not "truth") and (b) the presuppositions they take as "givens" most notably their confidence that we know "everything" and we'll not look as foolish in 500 years as our ancestors.

However, I strongly agree their work should be in Logos so that we can understand their arguments.

Yes

Posts 191
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 11 2019 10:49 PM

Francis:

Chi Shun Cheung:

"Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic)" - AGREED Big Smile

I don't understand why people like N.T. Wright when he is N.T. Wrong (New Testament Wrong) Stick out tongue

As someone who knows Wright personally, I can say the following:

  1. While I do not claim to have a handle on or agree with all his views (he writes faster than I read), I can assure you that he is very devout and only ever seek to promote faith, discipleship, and the kingdom of God. I can vouch for that without any hesitation. As a side note, I brushed shoulder with Wright (ill-reputed among many Evangelicals) and a number of very Evangelical scholars. Of those, only one impressed me positively with his faith, humility, and prayerfulness, and I don't speak of the latter group. 
  2. Whatever you end up thinking about his views, you can benefit from reading him in that you will learn to read the NT in its first-century Jewish and Greco-Roman context (as opposed to reading it as if written for 21st century people, usually Western in culture and lifestyle). As Paul would say: hang on to the good and toss the bad.
  3. Wright is trying hard to make sense of the Lord Jesus and the apostles' message in light of what God has done and announced previously (what he calls the metanarrative of Scripture). This is far superior than the piecemeal approach to messianic prophecy, interest in predictions of future events, or current hermeneutics of discontinuity, dispensationalism, or backreading Reformed theology in the OT (so-called "Christ-centered" interpretation). If you can make it through the tedium of long reviews of the history of scholarship, you should find much to learn about the ancient world and many questions to ponder as to how this may inform how we should understand what was said, done, and written in the NT.

My two cents for what they're worth. Peace and blessings to all who love the Lord out of a pure heart.

Thank you for this review.  I especially like #3 above, and couldn’t agree more concerning Reformed hermeneutics & the OT (soooo much I would love to say about that, but I digress).  If I were a betting man I would wager the OP is of the Reformed persuasion.  If anything, this thread has definitely piqued my interest in Wright—and I have been looking into acquiring a few of his works (just not sure which would interest me the most).

Thank you again for this sincere and honest review.  Very enlightening.

Posts 3153
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 6:28 AM

This doesn't add much to the convo but it had Wright in it so I thought I'd share this post from the TGC blog today if anyone is interested.  I haven't read Wright's or Schreiner's thoughts on this: Emphasis is mine

3. Faith Alone: The Doctrine of Justification by Thomas Schreiner

Thomas Schreiner summarizes the history of the doctrine, looking at the early church and the writings of several reformers. Then he turns his attention to the Scriptures and walks readers through an examination of the key texts. He discusses whether justification is transformative or forensic, and he introduces readers to some contemporary challenges to the Reformation teaching of sola fide, with particular attention to the New Perspective on Paul. Schreiner’s response to N. T. Wright is worth the price of the book. 

No one knows the apostle Paul like Schreiner does, which makes him the ideal New Testament scholar to respond to Wright’s reinterpretation of Paul’s doctrine of justification.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/5-books-justification-faith-alone/

Posts 1
Nytoysha Jamison | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 6:55 AM

How do I search something like Jesus's quote from Deuteronomy and how do I get a simple understanding of these search rules?

Posts 3
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 8:41 AM

NB.Mick:

Joseph Turner:
I don't want Faithlife deciding for me what is heretical or not.  For instance, I would take Wright over MacArthur any day, but I don't expect them to stop selling MacArthur

Same here. 

Yes

Posts 6315
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 8:42 AM

Schriner believes we’re all born sons of the serpent, so he’s not any better than Wright in his theology, yet, that doesn’t mean I haven’t learned a thing or two from him.

DAL

Posts 3658
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 9:08 AM

Mattillo:
No one knows the apostle Paul like Schreiner does, which makes him the ideal New Testament scholar to respond to Wright’s reinterpretation of Paul’s doctrine of justification.

I would not agree with either assertion (that no one knows Paul as well or that he is ideal). Read Schreiner to get a sort of best of what a Reformed perspective can offer. But both Schreiner and Wright need to be evaluated in their own rights, even compared and contrasted, in light of the evidence of Scripture. 

Posts 975
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 12:20 PM

Francis:
As someone who knows Wright personally, I can say the following:

Thanks so much for that valuable response. 

Posts 6315
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 12 2019 1:07 PM

Puddin’:

Francis:

Chi Shun Cheung:

"Wright was popular and well respected (signs of a true heretic)" - AGREED Big Smile

I don't understand why people like N.T. Wright when he is N.T. Wrong (New Testament Wrong) Stick out tongue

As someone who knows Wright personally, I can say the following:

  1. While I do not claim to have a handle on or agree with all his views (he writes faster than I read), I can assure you that he is very devout and only ever seek to promote faith, discipleship, and the kingdom of God. I can vouch for that without any hesitation. As a side note, I brushed shoulder with Wright (ill-reputed among many Evangelicals) and a number of very Evangelical scholars. Of those, only one impressed me positively with his faith, humility, and prayerfulness, and I don't speak of the latter group. 
  2. Whatever you end up thinking about his views, you can benefit from reading him in that you will learn to read the NT in its first-century Jewish and Greco-Roman context (as opposed to reading it as if written for 21st century people, usually Western in culture and lifestyle). As Paul would say: hang on to the good and toss the bad.
  3. Wright is trying hard to make sense of the Lord Jesus and the apostles' message in light of what God has done and announced previously (what he calls the metanarrative of Scripture). This is far superior than the piecemeal approach to messianic prophecy, interest in predictions of future events, or current hermeneutics of discontinuity, dispensationalism, or backreading Reformed theology in the OT (so-called "Christ-centered" interpretation). If you can make it through the tedium of long reviews of the history of scholarship, you should find much to learn about the ancient world and many questions to ponder as to how this may inform how we should understand what was said, done, and written in the NT.

My two cents for what they're worth. Peace and blessings to all who love the Lord out of a pure heart.

Thank you for this review.  I especially like #3 above, and couldn’t agree more concerning Reformed hermeneutics & the OT (soooo much I would love to say about that, but I digress).  If I were a betting man I would wager the OP is of the Reformed persuasion.  If anything, this thread has definitely piqued my interest in Wright—and I have been looking into acquiring a few of his works (just not sure which would interest me the most).

Thank you again for this sincere and honest review.  Very enlightening.

The OP, and all the Reformeds, is a son of the serpent! Schriner 101 😂

DAL

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