Poor formatting in FL ebooks

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 30 2019 12:54 PM

Gotcha. That would be annoying! Tongue Tied

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 30 2019 1:32 PM

JT (alabama24):
For clarification: FL has been more responsive in the past year about re-processing and correcting some resources when newer conversion schemes can create a better product. 

And do they should, when a customer purchase something from FL and it is rubbish they should fix it, whether it be a FL eBook or full Logos book.

JT (alabama24):
As for the "it's all the publisher's fault," that is true for some issues, but that has never been the claim about scripture hyperlinks.

JT I know its not the publisher fault. I was simply parroting the excuse that always gets rolled out first whenever anyone raises a concern with a FL eBook.  And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.

...

JT (alabama24):
has never been the claim about scripture hyperlinks. The publisher has nothing to do with it. The auto conversion process seems to work well when the reference is crystal clear (i.e. "John 3:16"). It does a fairly good job on references where the chapter & verse are clear, and the previous reference was in the same book (i.e. "3:17" for "John 3:17). It is mostly wrong when the reference isn't explicit in the immediate context and the reference is to a new book (i.e. "In his second work, Luke blah blah blah 3:18 [for Acts 3:18]). 

And JT you have just backed up my major complaint about FL eBooks - FL have no basis to make the claim, "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”

They can not state this when they know that they can not convert all references in a FL eBook into an accurate hyperlink.  There is no nice way to say this but someone is signing off on accepting a lie be placed on their website. I have seen this sort of claim made on at two different pages on the site, whether there are more pages with this lie it's nor really my job to go and find them for FL. It's the responsibility of the leadership of FL to show some integrity on this issue and have the marketing updated to reflect the truth by openly pointing out to potential customers that they can not guarantee accurate hyperlinks to references on all occasions. They know they can't. No matter how much anyone wants to dress this up. It's a lie and FL are putting it out there to potential customers knowingly.  It's wrong and its about time the leadership at FL did something to correct this wrong. 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 30 2019 1:38 PM

Denise:

JT (alabama24):

Denise:
We just got back from Hawaii, and I happily returned to reading an FL app'd book. I couldn't tell where I was (get my bearings). Somewhere about 2/3's thru. Grabbing the location slider was little help. Para 2,1, thank you very much.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Tongue Tied

Clearly you don't read 7-8 books at the same time. I read until it bogs down. Then return later, when I'm bogged down in other books. On the Logos desktop, it shows you clearly where you are (TOC panel). On all my 4 versions of Kindle, it shows me where I am (TOC panel or literal TOC). But the FL apps, usually only the last major para and sub-para somewhere on the scrollbar. Ergo 'avoid FL apps'.

Sounds like we read alike and totally agree working out where you are when reading a book in a FL app is like undertaking major surgery. They added all the other features to the app and yet forgot about navigation - and as for making highlights I'm less inclined to do that these days in the apps.  They new system is less functional than the old and when you highlight you have to manually go an set the note file you want the note assigned - but that's a whole other thread.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 30 2019 7:47 PM

DIsciple II:
And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.

You are confused. I have never said that errors in scripture hyperlinks are the fault of the publisher. They are not. They are the "fault" of the limited auto conversion process. 

DIsciple II:
And JT you have just backed up my major complaint about FL eBooks - FL have no basis to make the claim, "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”

Although I don't agree, I understand your complaint. I don't care to argue about it one way or the other. 

My two significant disagreements with your position: 

1. I don't agree that FL is "lying." You are imputing motives about FL and its employees which you should not. 

2. I don't agree that FL should either meet your particular standard for FLEB books OR not sell them at all. Every time you bring this up, I say the same thing. You get mad, but it is true. If you don't like it, don't buy it! However, there are many of us who do want the books in our library even if it doesn't quite rise to what we would want. For me, the quality of the vast majority of these books is more than sufficient to justify purchase in this format over another format and not having the title in my Logos library. There are some titles where this is not the case. As I stated earlier, FL has been more responsive of late to either: 1) reconvert if a good solution can be found or 2) pull the title from the store. 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 12:35 AM

JT (alabama24):

DIsciple II:
And I beg to differ it ha not been claimed as the excuse for hyperlinks. You yourself have excused the poor hyperlinking in FL eBooks because FL an only work with what the publishers provides them.

You are confused. I have never said that errors in scripture hyperlinks are the fault of the publisher. They are not. They are the "fault" of the limited auto conversion process. 

I am not confused in the slightest JT you are the one confused, we are both saying the same thing from different angles, I am talking about the input to the process that comes from the publisher which you have always said is why the limited auto conversion process can not do a better job with hyperlinks.

But then you follow up with statements that show you seem to be confuse about how to respond.  in the first instance you say:

JT (alabama24):

Although I don't agree, I understand your complaint. I don't care to argue about it one way or the other. 

And then in the next paragraph straight up after that:

JT (alabama24):
My two significant disagreements with your position: 

That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care to argue.

Especially when you presume you are so superior to me that you have the authority to take something I said and twist it out of context.

JT (alabama24):
1. I don't agree that FL is "lying." You are imputing motives about FL and its employees which you should not. 

I am not imputing anything about the motive of FL or their employees.  I have called out a single issue where they know they are not communicating the truth, you know they are not communicating the truth, and yet the persist with the claim they can not possibly make - you have confirmed once again scripture hyperlinks have errors due to the limited auto-conversion process.

Now they know the auto conversion is limited so then when they claim "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”, they know they are telling customers and potential customers and un-truth which is a lie, no mater how you want to dance around it - and it is on this issue and this issue alone I have said FL are displaying a lack of integrity. I have not said, implied or imputed about their motives despite you wanting to read this into what I have said.

For you it's an incovenient truth that FL is being misleading in their statement "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.” and so you seem to be offened that someone wall call it out for the lie that it is. Whatever the motives are behind it - and I have made no presumption of those motives - it is still a lie. 

But for the guy who didn't want to argue, you go on an make an even bigger futher assumption of what I want, when I have made no statement about what I want other than I wanting FL to correct this wrong. I have not said in my respsonse above I expect FLEB to meet my particular standards, and I have not said if they don't do that they should stop selling ebooks. You have never asked me what i want, you simply presume you know what I want and put words into my mouth so you can setup a straw man argument about me getting mad so you try and draw attention away from the real issue.

I raise this issue beause it is not about me, it is about FL, it's about the message they are sending to customers, it is about them showing integrity in every aspect of their business. It's about them taking responsibility for misleading information in their marketing. Nothing more than that and certainly nothing about what you think you know and what you want to paint it being about.

I am not 'mad' but simply astonished that you and FL and every other self appointed defender of FL think it is ok for a misleading statement about the functionality of FLEB be published on their website and am flabbergasted that you think you are so superior to me that you have the authority to make presumptions about what I am thinking and what I want and to say to me "If you don't like it, don't buy it!". I am sorry but you have no right to make that sort of statement to a fellow customer and are way out of line in speaking to a customer of FL like that no matter how much you disagree with them. That show's you have no idea how to handle people with whom you disagree when you think that is an appropriate response.

If I was what you say I am, the person you are trying to paint a picture of, I would not longer be a customer of this company. But actually I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up despite know how you are going to come, all guns blazing, trying to take me down as you defend FL.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 5:30 AM

DIsciple II:
Now they know the auto conversion is limited so then when they claim "Just tap a Bible reference in an eBook and see it in your prefer translation.”, they know they are telling customers and potential customers and un-truth which is a lie, no mater how you want to dance around it - and it is on this issue and this issue alone I have said FL are displaying a lack of integrity.

If we tell one lie, that makes us a liar. If we sin once, we're a sinner. Perhaps that's harsh, but we'd probably agree it's the truth.

I think that's why people can be thankful for qualities like grace, compassion, mercy, patience, forgiveness, and love.

I believe that FL's claim is generally true, and reasonable. I don't consider it to be deceptive, or misleading.

Do I (and FL) wish the quality could be improved? Sure. But if I think their marketing should be judged or condemned, what judgement or condemnation do I deserve? Their partial bible reference auto conversion isn't perfect. I'm not perfect. Not an excuse. Just the truth.

It's healthier for me to focus on what I'm thankful for, including the lower cost, having access to the book within Logos, and a free upgrade if it was to be converted to Logos format.

DIsciple II:
I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up

Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.

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MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 5:34 AM

PetahChristian:
Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.

Yes

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 12:16 PM

PetahChristian:

DIsciple II:
I remain a customer of this company and care enough about it to challenge them to clean this issue up

Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.

Petah you are now falling into JT's problem of taking something I have said out of context and saying something I never said. I did not say FL are liars I said that one particular statement is a lie. The fact they persist with a lie makes me cringe too.  It makes me cringe even more that people like JT and yourself can not handle the truth and so would rather create another mistruth about what I have said.  I have tried other ways and the leadership of FL continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to change this piece of marketing despite not being able to show the statement was true and that I was wrong.

PetahChristian:
I believe that FL's claim is generally true, and reasonable. I don't consider it to be deceptive, or misleading.

Generally true is not truth, it's a statement of excuse for what is not true of what is being said.  And if what is being said is not the whole truth, it is then in fact misleading.  You sound like someone who can not handle the truth either when you try to justify a lie to yourself with this double minded talk. It is the words of a teenager trying to justify to their parents their disobendience. It's not the words of truth at all. 

The truth is sometimes inconvenient, the truth sometimes makes us cringe.  I am not afraid of that truth, as much as it makes me cringe too, but it seems you and JT and some others are afraid of it and word rather try to bury me that allow the wound to be exposed and healed to make a great company even greater.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 1:00 PM

Be careful of what you like and accept as truth, you leave the door open to be told further mistruth. In this case Petah has not been around on these forums long enough to no the full background of this issue and has made some seriously flawed assumptions. 

MWW:

PetahChristian:
Might there be a more constructive way to challenge them, without having to call them liars? Not defending them in particular. The accusation simply makes me cringe.

Yes

As inconvenient the truth maybe, it remains FL is not telling the truth when they make this statement and fail to be open about its limitations.

JT and Peta are in the know about the limitations. I am advocating for those not in the know. They think it’s ok for these people to be told something less than the truth.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 1:27 PM

Writing my own parsers, I'd hate to guarantee anyone even a good Bible ref scan. They're truly obnoxious. You can't even safely assume partials refer back to the most recent ref. And then they mix and match Bible vs some other similarly ref'd source (eg targum, etc). Bad news at Blackrock.

And Disciple II, I'd agree the Logos boilerplate is a stretch, especially when they know it. But FL Marketing is not likely to go for credibility.

It's why I like some of the marketing folks at the other Bible software companies. The other day, I noticed I accept  everyone's marketing emails except Logos. And I don't even buy anymore from 2 of them.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 2:13 PM

Denise:
I'd hate to guarantee anyone even a good Bible ref scan.

I can vouch for Verbum having deuterocanonical references in formats that are not picked up. I went on a search of reference formats for the Maccabees and came to the conclusion that I would never find them all. FL does seem to be responsive to adding those that are reported.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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