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Posts 312
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 10:33 PM

DAL:

Denise,

It’s called common sense and it’s not a logos tool it’s a tool God gave you. For example: The Bible says Baptism saves you and is unto/in order to receive remission/forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21; Mark 16:16), but that doesn’t mean baptism alone saves you or that it is the only thing you need to do to be saved.  The Bible also tells you repentance leads to eternal life (Acts 11:18; 2 Corinthians 7:10; Luke 13:5; Acts 2:38) but that doesn’t mean all you need to do is repent.  The Bible tells you confessing is unto/ in order to be saved (Romans 10:9-10), but that doesn’t mean confessing is all you do. The Bible also tells you to believe in order to be saved and please God (Mark 16:16; Hebrews 11:6), but that doesn’t mean believe is all you do because even demons believe (James 2:19).  By the way, faith is a work ( John 6:28-29) a verse ignored by those who  claim works don’t save. And you must remain faithful and overcome always to be saved (Revelation 2:10; 2 Timothy 4:6-8).
I have purposely avoided the traditional order of the steps of the plan of salvation as I teach them on Sundays for an obvious reason: To illustrate the fact that many churches teach one or the other, others go as far as teaching there’s nothing you have to do because it’s all grace; but the truth remains that by cherry picking (being sarcastic here), you can put 2 and 2 together and find out that it’s all those steps (i.e. Faith, repentance, confession, baptism and being faithful) that God commands and you must obey if you want the free gift of salvation.  There’s no such thing as different ways to be saved — some pick faith only, others  pick confession only, others repentance only, etc. but it’s all those steps together found by cherry picking (sacasm again) that you must obey to receive salvation— anything less than that, is not biblical.

Anyway, getting late and I must have some sleep before going to work 😉

DAL

☝️What he said!  Just baptized someone tonight in the name of Jesus!  

Ok, no more theology (although I wouldn’t classify plain biblical declarations as “theology,” but rather biblical facts).

Posts 312
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 10:35 PM

Denise:

Puddin’:

But, as you know, I do respect your [MJ's] linguistic/text critical abilities—and so I’ll just say that I will look into this further (been wanting to do that anyway).  

It's always best to discuss evidence, versus letters of the alphabet. Phd's are good 5 minutes after they're awarded, after that, results only (my general opinion). The primary drivers are the absence of a bishop structure, and associated theology, especially formal instruction. Now, that could indicate early, and it could be a later group 'up in the hills' (away from bishopric control). The latter struggles due to many examples of bishops wildly stomping outliers, beginning with Ignatus.



👍👍

Posts 312
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 10:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

Puddin’:
I read excerpts from a university Ph.D. dissertation recently w. current quotes from bonafide scholars that speak to this same conclusion regarding the Didache.

I find that in theological studies (in contrast to linguistics or religious studies that touch on Christian subject), one of the first things to do in evaluating a source is to consider whether or not the "scholar" has a belief to protect. (see belief revision logic) and the theology bent of the school they attended. Why? personal experience. I attended for 1 year a religious college that I refuse to acknowledge that I know anything about. I knew it was a crap school despite its reputation when my biology teacher informed us that a certain chemical could not be made in the lab, a chemical that he considered crucial to evolution. Only problem was that the week before, I'd learned how to synthesize it in honors chemistry and it was more than a decade since it was first done.

Didache is not an area in which I am an expert. But from my quick review of the literature, it is a perfect example of why Logos needs a simple argument mapping tool. The original arguments for a early date that I have seen were quite weak - establishing the possibility but requiring substantial additional research. The original argument for a late date were a combination of quite strong objections to the early date and partisan objections to the inconvenience to their belief system of the earlier date. In what I have read, the additional research both due to studying newly found documents and due to dropping a Euro-centric study for a world-wide church study, have strengthened the early date position and weakened the objections that led to the later date position. Whether or not the shift is sufficient to lead someone to change their position is a judgment call but a simple argument mapping tool would allow one to lay the date out, modify the information as one's knowledge expands, and encourage the holding of beliefs based on the best information available to you rather than by habit (as in the biology prof at the unnamed school).

Have fun exploring the issue.

I like this last idea (last paragraph).  Would be excellent for syllogisms in Bible class and public polemics.

Will dig further into the Didache.  Although, since I am a sola scriptura kinda’ feller’—I personally don’t place a lot of stock in so-called early church father’s (many of whom would be classified as alleged “heretics” by today’s supposed “orthodoxy” 🙄). 

Posts 6557
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 2:41 AM

MJ. Smith:

DAL:

Any sinner can host a devo at their home or attend potlucks or church related events, but at the end of the day and in the final biblical analysis, they’ll never become members until they get saved the Bible way.  Period and end of discussion! 👍😁👌

Any more questions? I thought so...NEXT!

😜

DAL

Thank you God ... the only person authorized to speak this definitely. In other words, cut the theological stuff - you know better.

Is not theology is the Truth as hard as it is for you to accept it.  I remember being in the big C' church (you know what C stands for "universal") and I remember the none sense being taught there.  The drunk that beat his wife senseless was a member there and the guy actually prayed his way into heaven.  The so called "father" would tell him: "Just pray a few ave marias (hail marys) some holy Fathers and 3 times around the rosary and you'll be fine.  And by the way, try not to beat your wife senseless next time around.  You could kill her and then what? who's gonna clean around the house, who's gonna cook for you, who's gonna take care of the kids? Just take it easy, she's a good woman.  Go in peace my son." The drunk guy's membership was based on the fact that his ancestors were born into the big C church, because they had relatives that were born into the big C church, without actually becoming members.  At the eulogy all the talk was about how the drunk was a child of God and how he was now at Jesus' side and how God was going to give him great privileges in heaven because he was there now.  Remember, he prayed his way into heaven. ;-)

That to me, is not the truth, is none sense.  But I'll tell you what, with an easy piecy doctrine like that, I'm feeling tempted to become a C like you are.  I can be a drunk, beat my wife, have other women outside the house, etc. and I can just pray my way into heaven.  That's easy piecy ham and cheesy.

By the way, maybe you can give me some quotes from your ancient none inspired literature to support praying hail Marys or Ave Marias as I know it or some quotes about praying 3 times or x number of times around the rosary.

All my respect to you MJ, but with all the smarts, logic and critical thinking skills you posses, some times I just wonder.  That's all I'm going to say about that.

By the way, what I wrote about the big C church is not theology, so no need to worry about it.  Actually, is called a sad reality.

And don't worry, I'm not going to email you to try to save you.  I think the ones that have done that have done more harm than good.  But seriously, you need to rethink your logic.  I wonder what text book you've been using.

Happy Friday! Instead of TGIF (you know, to keep the theology out of the discussion).

DAL

Posts 10309
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 6:32 AM

DAL:
Is not theology is the Truth as hard as it is for you to accept it. 

Now, Mr DAL, we did stray off the path of Logos righteousness.

And between our experiences in 'C' and 'P', you have been on the observing side, I have been on the receiving side. At the heart of the problem is what to do with not-righteous. Destroy them, nudge them, or at least protect surrounding victims. And the occurrance rate between the 'C' and 'P' is surprisingly similar.

My point above, is Logos largely offers its dances, collecting its 10 cents.


Posts 700
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 12 2019 5:20 AM

DAL:

Enjoyed most of your posts here. 

You are right about sad reality, not only of groups both C and P, but also of believers all over.

In empathy with MJ, she does understand the value of Congregating together to worship, and how that  should bring about the presence of the LORD. (where 2 or 3...).

Our problem is deeper than that. I understand structuralists (institutionalists), in general all movements that did not have strong institutional structures died on the long run.

But if we try to search for a principle in the Bible, then there is good guidance:

1 Corinthians 12:13

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 

1 Corinthians 6:17

But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Do persons want to know about membership? it is clear above how that is obtained.

The main problem today  can be illustrated by some of the comments a group of chaplains obtained when interviewing groups of people from all denominations:

In short when asked to share what they thought were the lows of their religious groups, surprisingly many manifested similar things:

lack of revival, lack of power, lack of transparency, lack of management skills, etc.

Creatures were not created to have a life independent of their maker. When Eve and Adam tried to be like God by eating of the forbidden fruit, the Holy Spirit (that allowed koinonia with God) left. 

Jesus mission after atonement was baptize with the Holy Spirit to restore Koinonia with God.

That tongue as of fire atop the believer is what makes us a member of the Body of Christ. The koinonia with God through the Holy Spirit is needed for: revival, power, transparency, good management, etc.

I am pretty sure that many in the C and P and even independent are going to be saved. Church does not save, Jesus Christ does, and He knows the heart of all.

He expects each to walk in the light available to him / her, only those that repeatedly resist the Holy Spirit and blaspheme against Him, will be the ones facing deep trouble at the end. (of course unrepentant sinners too).

We are all in different groups due to God's magnificent plan for each one, but we should not forget that the restoration of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer for koinonia with God (made possible by Jesus sacrifice alone), is what is important for entry in the Body of Christ, which is the real church.

If the particular group is not having the movement of the Holy Spirit, then nothing wrong with looking for it individually to then spread the fire:

Luke 11:13

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him! 

So instead of focusing so much if one is C or P or Indep., better to make sure the tongue as of fire is atop.

Peace and grace.

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