Why the Repeated, Sequential Indexing?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 3:00 AM

Rosie Perera:
I just don't have time for all that library management. And now you're saying I also need to manage which resources I have locally on my machine and which ones are in the cloud?...

I understand your response because I wasn't  "saying" there was a need to do that (I wrote "unfortunately" and  "may"). Martha's response also showed it is not the answer. So, back to Faithlife!

For interests sake, how big is your Logos folder and how long does it take to index a few resources e.g. with an update?

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 3:10 AM

David J Heintzman:
Talk about irony! No other piece of software I own exemplifies this sentiment the way Logos does.  It seems that "user interface responsiveness" is quite low on the priority list lately.

Library catalog refresh has automatic refresh of Library display, which annoying forgets which resource was selected (so trying to read resource information while catalog index or collection cache is rebuilt can cause user selection to vanish without any user action).

Concur with irony! as more recent Logos & Verbum releases automatically try to be more user helpful (while effectively being more of a hindrance to experienced power users).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3281
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 7:09 AM

Yikes!  I don't have nearly the amount of resources you all do but my surface pro 3 works great w/ Logos.  The only multiple indexing I get is between resources and datasets.  Some resources are slow to load I agree but I chalked that up to the age of my computer.

I hope you all get it figured out!

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 11:32 AM

Hi Doc B

I'm going to contact you offline.

 

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2019 2:29 PM

I think the dribble downloading is something Logos should look into. 

I've turned off auto download. I open to a blank screen. This saves gobs of time on any installation. If you open with a layout that has floating panels or searches, you will pay dearly in how fast it settles down to use.

I decided to update a machine with an SSD this past week. Apparently the machine was on it's last breath and died shortly after, so I have an SSD which will get transplanted somewhere else.

While it ran it was just fine, but frankly Logos is a pig, especially if you think you think you can run it on the standard presets with a big dowloaded layout and auto download.. You don't put the Alaskan Pipeline through a straw. I think even the optimum specs for Logos install hardware that FL publishes are conservative. I'm not exactly happy at the thought of buying an expensive machine, but Logos is demanding software if you have a large library.

I forget where the story originates, but if you don't have room for an elephant in your tent, don't make friends with the elephant trainer. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 12 2019 3:56 PM

Not to downplay in any way the legitimate frustrations here... mine being -- like MJ's -- more with the autopopulate lists, but it also takes quite a long time for Windows to rebuild its search index and it's search is not even that effective in the end.

My question is whether the now defunct Bibleworks or the current Accordance offer a similar level of complexity to searches yet is able to do it with much better performance. If so, this could be indication that the number of resources and the depth of tagging is not the real problem. If not, then the question would remain how do we know that we can do much better beside wishing for it? I am not suggestive of an answer, but genuinely asking others what they know about this. 

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2019 6:44 AM

Francis:

Not to downplay in any way the legitimate frustrations here... mine being -- like MJ's -- more with the autopopulate lists, but it also takes quite a long time for Windows to rebuild its search index and it's search is not even that effective in the end.

My question is whether the now defunct Bibleworks or the current Accordance offer a similar level of complexity to searches yet is able to do it with much better performance. If so, this could be indication that the number of resources and the depth of tagging is not the real problem. If not, then the question would remain how do we know that we can do much better beside wishing for it? I am not suggestive of an answer, but genuinely asking others what they know about this. 

Hi Francis,

BW, when it was operational, came with a fixed set of resources. It does not index, but searches do not search the entire library, only the primary texts. It defaults to only searching one text, but you can set it to search all texts with that language. In addition the morphological text is separate from the primary text, which means you search the morph text for lemmas. By having essentially a closed system, with little option to add resources, indexing is not required. You cannot search your entire library. 

Accordance does not index. It does some very complex searches quickly, however, Accordance does not have the "data sets" for person, sense, topic, etc. that Logos has. It uses Strongs or the GK (NIV) #s for tying to their reverse interlinears. For many the speed of Accordance when working with the original languages and not using indexing is a strong selling point. Accordance does not offer 50K in resources for sale.

So really you have different products to some extent. Depending on your focus people choose which is best for them. Logos is a complex product with all the data sets they tie to their biblical texts, reverse interlinears tied to OL, etc. This requires indexing to allow for faster searches. 

It is probably safe to say that Logos innovates and uses a ready .... shoot... aim process in their development. They release and fix later. This does not always allow for efficiency in how the program works. They have always been that way, but they also offer features that the others do not. Whether they re useful or usable, depends on the user. Not justifying anything, just stating my perception of how things work.

Hopefully the above is stated objectively and not intended to refute the requests for improvements of other on this thread. Who doesn't want the program to work faster and be less disruptive to workflows?

Posts 6496
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2019 8:56 AM

DIsciple II:

Rosie I did not read your response that way. You showed you had fully read DOC B’s concerns and identified with them.

I have a similar sized library to you so I know you get the pain. My machine is a couple of years old now and fairly basic spec. I will need to consider a new one next year with Logos 9 way expected and finally get a SSD. I know I’m late to that party but playing with hardware is not my thing so I don’t do DIY upgrades. 

I only have half the size your library and Rosie’s and when it’s indexing it even affects my word document that I’m working on.  So  maybe I’ll just buy as needed and upgrade but maybe no more adding books to my library in future library upgrades because it really slows it down when it’s indexing. I think I have plenty for now.  I’ll probably do one final library upgrade before Logos 9 and during L9, but we’ll see.

DAL

Posts 29
Linda | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2019 10:08 AM

My library is indexing often as well. I don't have as many resources as some so it's not a big problem, but I also wondered why it's happening. I also have lost the sidebar/filters to my library which I posted in it's own thread, but wonder if somehow this is related??

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 13 2019 12:46 PM

Linda:
I also have lost the sidebar/filters to my library which I posted in it's own thread, but wonder if somehow this is related??

It is unrelated. Has someone responded to your other thread? I'll see if I can find it. 

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 8:05 AM

Dave Hooton:
Part of the solution is not to close Logos i.e. keep it open until a restart is requested

Absolutely, unequivocally, insurmountably out of the question. Logos is too large a resource hog to leave open.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2834
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 8:16 AM

DIsciple II:

Dave Hooton:
The response that is needed has to come from Faithlife

Never has a truer word been spoken on these forums.

For those who are wondering, I *did* get a helpful email response from Tommy at FL with some instructions to trouble-shoot the issue. I very much appreciate the follow-up.

Problem is, they require me to put on a programmer's hat (that I do not own)...and some time (which I will find).

He seems to be concerned that the indexer is crashing (which I don't think it is based on getting finished indexing...just really slowly after repeated indexes) or that I don't have enough free disk drive space (which I clearly do...well over 300GB). When I get time, I'll collect the logs (he wants two iterations over two consecutive days) and we'll see.

I hate collecting logs.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 10:30 AM

Tongue Tied Smile

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 12:27 PM

Doc B:
For those who are wondering, I *did* get a helpful email response from Tommy at FL with some instructions to trouble-shoot the issue

Great to here.

Doc B:
He seems to be concerned that the indexer is crashing (which I don't think it is based on getting finished indexing...just really slowly after repeated indexes) or that I don't have enough free disk drive space (which I clearly do...well over 300GB).

This is the stock standard solution but to me it says true issue you are raising is not being heard if they believe this will fix the situation … but sometimes you got to go through the steps logically to get people to understand the true issue.

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Andrew Batishko (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 12:55 PM

DIsciple II:
This is the stock standard solution but to me it says true issue you are raising is not being heard if they believe this will fix the situation … but sometimes you got to go through the steps logically to get people to understand the true issue.

It means that we aren't aware of any situations that would lead to indexing occurring more often than every two weeks (which is how often resource updates get published), with the following expected exceptions:

  • When a batch of resources is updated, and some require an application restart (or an application update requires a restart), then indexing may begin before the restart occurs. After the restart, indexing will need to run again for any resources that got updated after the restart. This should only happen once.
  • When you download a newly purchased resource, indexing on the new resources must happen.
  • When you download a resource that was previously a cloud resource (or a hidden resource), then indexing must happen.

It doesn't sound like Doc B is encountering any of those situations, so we have to investigate to find out why he is experiencing a problem that we can't recreate for ourselves. Doing that requires verifying known situations that can cause the symptoms (indexer crashing or out of disk space) and collecting log files to look for traces of the problem there.

If we're missing some kind of systemic problem with how updating occurs, we'd love for you to help us determine the cause of this problem so that we can fix it.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 2:37 PM

The systematic problem was described earlier in regards to multipart updates requiring user intervention and thus they can‘t go a do something for else productive while the update process does what it needs to do and you can’t rely on overnight updates because of the require user intervention.

Appreciate you taking the time to ask Andrew. Hopefully I explained the issue well enough.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

DIsciple II:
This is the stock standard solution but to me it says true issue you are raising is not being heard if they believe this will fix the situation … but sometimes you got to go through the steps logically to get people to understand the true issue.

It means that we aren't aware of any situations that would lead to indexing occurring more often than every two weeks (which is how often resource updates get published), with the following expected exceptions:

  • When a batch of resources is updated, and some require an application restart (or an application update requires a restart), then indexing may begin before the restart occurs. After the restart, indexing will need to run again for any resources that got updated after the restart. This should only happen once.
  • When you download a newly purchased resource, indexing on the new resources must happen.
  • When you download a resource that was previously a cloud resource (or a hidden resource), then indexing must happen.

It doesn't sound like Doc B is encountering any of those situations, so we have to investigate to find out why he is experiencing a problem that we can't recreate for ourselves. Doing that requires verifying known situations that can cause the symptoms (indexer crashing or out of disk space) and collecting log files to look for traces of the problem there.

If we're missing some kind of systemic problem with how updating occurs, we'd love for you to help us determine the cause of this problem so that we can fix it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 2:41 PM

Doc B:
He seems to be concerned that the indexer is crashing (which I don't think it is based on getting finished indexing...just really slowly after repeated indexes) or that I don't have enough free disk drive space (which I clearly do...well over 300GB). When I get time, I'll collect the logs (he wants two iterations over two consecutive days) and we'll see.

Years ago with a similar problem Bradley diagnosed a dying hard drive ... I would have preferred a software bug Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DIsciple II:
The systematic problem was described earlier in regards to multipart updates requiring user intervention and thus they can‘t go a do something for else productive while the update process does what it needs to do and you can’t rely on overnight updates because of the require user intervention.

That sounds like a nice enough idea, but not one that directly solves Doc B's problem.

Posts 2289
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 22 2019 10:13 PM

Rosie Perera:
I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.

Thought I now could add my two cents on this. I just got a Dell XPS 15 with an i9 8th Gen CPU 32GB RAM 2666, 4GB Graphics, and a 1 TB Pci-e SSD. (It was on sale--maybe to make room for 9th Gen ) I've only got a bit over 15,000 resources, but it downloaded everything and indexed it all really fast. I was going to wait for the new MacBook Pro 16, but this basically about the same config in a Win 10 box. Logos loads and I can get right to work. I even used it while it was indexing, something that was a real struggle before.  

I'd hate to think Logos needs this kind of artillery, but it doesn't matter. It works. I have some other needs for this beast, so it will all get used. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 23 2019 2:40 AM

Rosie Perera:
I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.

Rosie your machine should be crazy fast. I know when Logos first launches a bible it has to apply all the Visual Filters, and this can be very slow, and can take several minutes if many filters present, or many bibles versions being opened that have the filter applied, as it has to apply it to each version.


However once it completes this process, the cpu should return to normal. Do you have lots of visual filters?

NB -

1) If all of that bible version is closed, and reopend, it has to go through this process again.

2) Even if the VF is unticked in the bible, it still has to go through this process. I create a collection called 'VF Applied" and then apply the Visual Filter to the Collection, I can then just add and remove my bible to the collection I want to see or not see the Visual Filters. This means when the usual bible is not in the collection, I do not have to wait for the filters to be applied, if I just unticked them, I would have to wait.

Anyway you may have explored this somewhere in your many other posts, but it may be helpful for others if they have having problems.

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