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Josh Hunt | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 17 2019 10:13 AM

I was just reading another post about footnotes not correctly tied to their source. It occurs to me that it would be great if FL could implement some sort of crowd sourcing strategy so that users could help edit/ correct FL books. I am wondering if FL has ever given any thought to this?

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 11:23 AM

It‘s been suggested many many times so FL have possibly discussed it. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 1:55 PM

Josh Hunt:
I am wondering if FL has ever given any thought to this?

Yes, community tags is crowd sourcing of Bible entity tagging which has added some useful tags but I have not seen users actually embracing it:

There have been beta trials of some other crowd sourcing but they've not resulted in a workable product.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 4:21 PM

The problem I have with some community tagging I see is it appears have been done because it can and it actually is not value adding by having it.

The classic example is where in a paragraph where say the book of Exodus is mentioned 5 times. Everyone of those mentions has had a community Tag added to the Factbook entry on the book of Exodus when only the first mention is required for me to be able to find this paragraph through the Factbook or through a basic search. 

And so the quality of what is done in crowdsourcing is always an issue. The other big ‘crowdsourcing’ idea in Logos is community notes and some of what shows up in them is a good case for not doing crowdsourced projects. 

MJ. Smith:

Josh Hunt:
I am wondering if FL has ever given any thought to this?

Yes, community tags is crowd sourcing of Bible entity tagging which has added some useful tags but I have not seen users actually embracing it:

There have been beta trials of some other crowd sourcing but they've not resulted in a workable product.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 4:42 PM

DIsciple II:
And so the quality of what is done in crowdsourcing is always an issue

Luckily I know I have the perfect balance of what to tag Wink I try to assume that people who tag every occurrence, as is done by Logos in Bibles, have a good use for the additional detail. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant - it saves me a lot of stress. Big Smile

DIsciple II:
community notes and some of what shows up in them is a good case for not doing crowdsourced projects. 

I consider community notes to be more of a collaboration tool - teacher to students or true collaboration. I agree it is unapt to be useful across more "universal" boundaries.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 5:15 PM

MJ. Smith:

DIsciple II:
And so the quality of what is done in crowdsourcing is always an issue

Luckily I know I have the perfect balance of what to tag Wink I try to assume that people who tag every occurrence, as is done by Logos in Bibles, have a good use for the additional detail. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant - it saves me a lot of stress. Big Smile

DIsciple II:
community notes and some of what shows up in them is a good case for not doing crowdsourced projects. 

I consider community notes to be more of a collaboration tool - teacher to students or true collaboration. I agree it is unapt to be useful across more "universal" boundaries.

Agree community notes are beneficial in the context you describe but the way FL has implemented them they go beyond that scenario. But that’s another thread OT to Josh’s original question so I’ll leave it there. 

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 6:44 PM

I see community tagging and community notes as being fundamentally different from the kind of copy editing that Josh is talking about. Both tagging and notes involve creating new information/content.  I believe Josh is talking about correcting erroneous information.  In that case, I think a better parallel would be to reporting typos. It would be great if typo reporting could be expanded to include reporting footnotes and other references that aren't correctly tied to their source.

There's another step I'd like to see, but it would have both advantages and disadvantages.  One limitation of the current typo reporting system is that other users don't benefit unless and until FaithLife updates the resource to fix the typos.  I would find it helpful if reported typos could be shown as a "community correction" in the interim between when they're reported and when the resource is updated. You'd know to take a correction with a grain of salt, but at least it would flag a potential error and let you know what another user believes the correct text should be.  It would also let you know that the error had already been reported, so you wouldn't need to submit a duplicate typo report.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 6:55 PM

EastTN:
It would be great if typo reporting could be expanded to include reporting footnotes and other references that aren't correctly tied to their source.

A version of this was tried as a beta ... and firmly rejected. There are some aspects that seem intractable in what appears to be a simple problem.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 12:56 PM

EastTN:

I see community tagging and community notes as being fundamentally different from the kind of copy editing that Josh is talking about. Both tagging and notes involve creating new information/content.  I believe Josh is talking about correcting erroneous information.  In that case, I think a better parallel would be to reporting typos. It would be great if typo reporting could be expanded to include reporting footnotes and other references that aren't correctly tied to their source.

They are different but the fact they are not well understood in how to use them appropriately is a good indicator the wider user community is not the appropriate group of people to be undertaking the task of copy editing, FL cannot simply accept every change sent through. 

And that is where this discussion always fails to go - FL would need to pay someone, potentially more than someone possibly to look after all of these corrections coming through including validating they are correct and conform to guidelines on what should be linked. There is debate over whether other editions should be linked to if they are in Logos but not the edition quoted as one serious example where differing community standards / expectations would require guidelines and checking they suggested change adheres to those guidelines. This is a task that while we as users may see it valuable and even expect it given the claims FL make about their product but for the company it would not directly contribute to bringing in extra income to fund such positions.

Next issue is expectation of turn around on the details submitted ? How quickly users expect to see these ’fixes’ they have submitted come through and how quickly they would come through in reality I suspect are very different.

Report Typos to me is a good indicator on these last couple of points I raise along with the others about community tagging and notes that the solution and implementation is not as simple as the idealistic concept of ‘crowdsourcing‘ if the crowd is the wider user community and on the other side of the equation we expect quick turnaround by FL and at no extra cost to us as users, FL will simply absorb the costs on their side. 

Of course if we actually solved all those problems people would complain more about the extra downloading an indexing due to more updated resources files coming through. Crowdsourcing leads to more problems than solutions IMHO.

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 4:22 PM

MJ. Smith:

EastTN:
It would be great if typo reporting could be expanded to include reporting footnotes and other references that aren't correctly tied to their source.

A version of this was tried as a beta ... and firmly rejected. There are some aspects that seem intractable in what appears to be a simple problem.

I didn't know that.  I'm disappointed to hear that the experiment didn't work, but I'm glad they tried it.

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