Open Theism resources

Hi Y'all!

I'm wondering why Logos has ignored folks like Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, and John Sanders et al. open theists in creating resources. I for one, would love to have some of their stuff in Logos, for example Greg Boyd's "God of the Possible", and Clark Pinnock's "The Openness of God."

I'm really feeling a bit like they might as well rename Logos4 into Calvin4 or something. The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

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Mark Barnes

I don't think Pinnock's position is defensible, but it would be useful to have the works you mention in Logos.

I'm really feeling a bit like they might as well rename Logos4 into
Calvin4 or something. The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

We had this discussion earlier. I'm not at all convinced you're right. When counting the small number of openness resources, you should remember that (a) it's a relatively new position, which means the vast majority of works are in copyright - whilst a huge number of Calvinistic works have no copyright issues; and (b) there are a lot more Calvinists than Open Theology advocates.

Semper Reformandum : Studies in Honour of Clark H. Pinnock is available in Logos, by the way.

George Somsel

I'm really feeling a bit like they might as well rename Logos4 into Calvin4 or something. The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

I thought it was rather Arminian. [:P]

Floyd Johnson

I'm really feeling a bit like they might as well rename Logos4 into Calvin4 or something. The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

I expect the resources available are more indicative of those buying books, than those of LOGOS. I know if you look at the length of time it takes Arminian resources to move through the PrePub or Community Pricing process, it becomes clear where the general interest of LOGOS's customers lie - sadly.

Westie

I'm wondering why Logos has ignored folks like Clark Pinnock, Greg Boyd, and John Sanders et al. open theists in creating resources. I for one, would love to have some of their stuff in Logos, for example Greg Boyd's "God of the Possible", and Clark Pinnock's "The Openness of God."

I'm really feeling a bit like they might as well rename Logos4 into Calvin4 or something. The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists

I think that either the Libertarian free will of Logos users have decided that they do not see much value in these resource, or God in his providence has prevented these resources from hitting the LOGOS prepub page…

You might want to check out the “collected works of John Frame Vol 1” . He has a fair amount discussion on Open Theism.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140199#Comment_140199

I think that either the Libertarian free will of Logos users have decided that they do not see much value in these resource, or God in his providence has prevented these resources from hitting the LOGOS prepub page…

[:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140199#Comment_140199

You might want to check out the “collected works of John Frame Vol 1” . He has a fair amount discussion on Open Theism.

Does he start with Calcidius? or perhaps with the Kabbalistic view of the withdrawal of God? ... I haven't heard of Pinnock, Boyd or Sanders. Frame I've looked into a bit trying to understand his theory of apologetics. You know, I feel good when someone actually recommends something I've heard of [:D]

I will confess that the Jewish-Anglican-Lutheran-Catholic-Orthodox recommendations tend to be things I know. So I have plenty to spend my budget on without being overwhelmed by what I can't have. That's a good thing.[:P]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140199#Comment_140199

I think that either the Libertarian free will of Logos users have decided that they do not see much value in these resource, or God in his providence has prevented these resources from hitting the LOGOS prepub page…

Yes...that was funny [:D]

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140199#Comment_140199

I think that either the Libertarian free will of Logos users have decided that they do not see much value in these resource, or God in his providence has prevented these resources from hitting the LOGOS prepub page…

Thanks for this it was funny [:D].

Ted

(‾◡◝)

You need to just open your heart and invite Calvin to come in.

[;)]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140253#Comment_140253

You need to just open your heart and invite Calvin to come in.

[:D] [:D] [:D] touché !

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140253#Comment_140253

You need to just open your heart and invite Calvin to come in.

I didn't think we could up the chuckle-factor but you just did...!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140263#Comment_140263

I didn't think we could up the chuckle-factor but you just did...!

Upchuck ??

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140264#Comment_140264

I would like to see more Open Theism resources. Besides one you mentioned, how about The God Who Risks by John Sanders.

Mike Pettit

The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

Like that pesky Apostle Paul.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140287#Comment_140287

The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

Like that pesky Apostle Paul.

Didn't Paul take his graduate work in Geneva?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140287#Comment_140287

Like that pesky Apostle Paul.

I just shot Orange soda out of my nose!

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140287#Comment_140287

The vast majority of resources seem to be geared towards extreme Calvinists.

For the record...the definition of "extreme" (I assume) is equal to "hyper" Calvinist. IF that's the case...then your statement is not accurate.

(From Tim Challies Blog:)

A hyper-Calvinist is one who:

Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
Denies that the gospel makes any “offer” of Christ, salvation, or
mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free
and universal), OR
Denies that there is such a thing as “common grace,” OR
Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

Probably the most distinguishing characteristic of a Hyper-Calvinist is
an unwillingness to evangelize at all, or to evangelize without
extending a call to accept and believe the gospel.

I don't think that you meant that...you were just referring to "consistent Calvinists" right?

If I'm off base...then forget I said anything...[:$]

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140301#Comment_140301

"Hyper-Calvinist" or "extreme calvinist" are both attempts to use perjorative labels as the basis for any discussion and as such will only cause a huge bun fight, as Robert points out such lables are usually based on disagreements over consistency.

It is best to just stick to the term of historic Calvinism (which by and large is of the five point variety) and leave the finer distinctions or arguments as to the biblical claims underpinning such views to theological discussion.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140318#Comment_140318

"Hyper-Calvinist" or "extreme calvinist" are both attempts to use perjorative labels as the basis for any discussion and as such will only cause a huge bun fight, as Robert points out such lables are usually based on disagreements over consistency.

It is best to just stick to the term of historic Calvinism (which by and large is of the five point variety) and leave the finer distinctions or arguments as to the biblical claims underpinning such views to theological discussion.

You were predestined to say that.... [;)]

(I'm sorry, I couldn't resist)

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140319#Comment_140319

Kendall, perhaps the way this thread has turned might be a good time to suggest that editorializing comments that seem derogatory toward other theological viewpoints have no useful place in the forum.

Your suggestions are good, and I welcome them. The rest of the original post wasn't too helpful, however. There are people from all backgrounds on these forums, from fundamentalist Baptist to Roman Catholic. Because forums are a poor medium to convey nuance as well as being far too easy to spout off and click "post", take great care in just getting to the point.

As for Calvinist books, there are a lot of them because they sell, and because there are several scholars of that theological outlook who are competent, popular, and prolific writers.

Anyway, I welcome your suggestions, and wonder if you have any more open theism books you'd like to see beyond the two or three mentioned. I encourage you to put together a list of 5 or 10 and not only post them on suggestions, but also send the list to suggest@logos.com

thanks!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140266#Comment_140266

I would like to see more Open Theism resources. Besides one you mentioned, how about The God Who Risks by John Sanders.

Since I am living in Will Roger's home state i will borrow (& butcher) one of his famous phrases to say, "I have never met a Logos resource I didn't like."

I would bid on Open Theism works in Community Pricing. But I would rather see Paul Tillich & a host of other "left-fielders" before I'd place a Pre-Pub order on it.

As far as the comedians go............. yes, the comments were humorous but they weren't all that nice to the original poster. I hope he takes them in the light-heartedness i think they were said in.

fwiw: There is no way I could ever embrace Open Theism because I KNOW God is omni-*, sovereign, and intimately interested in his children. And it is nice to know on this Father's Day, just whose child you are. [Y] [H]

Larry Heflin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140332#Comment_140332

The Collected Works of John Frame http://www.logos.com/products/details/3586 contains several works addressing open theism. But, on a second reading of your post, I suppose he's not what you're looking for.

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140332#Comment_140332

fwiw: There is no way I could ever embrace Open Theism because I KNOW God is omni-*, sovereign, and intimately interested in his children. And it is nice to know on this Father's Day, just whose child you are.

And a hearty amen to that.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140332#Comment_140332

There is no way I could ever embrace Open Theism because I KNOW God is omni-*,

I agree, but do you think that God realizes He's omni-*?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140401#Comment_140401

There is no way I could ever embrace Open Theism because I KNOW God is omni-*,

I agree, but do you think that God realizes He's omni-*?

[:)] He has probably learned it by now if He's been reading this thread! [:)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140401#Comment_140401

I agree, but do you think that God realizes He's omni-*?

Very good of you to point out my very bad statement. It kinda leaves the definition "open" to whatever interpretation anybody chooses to assign to it. Could it be similar to Open Theism?

In light of your post I must clarify, instead of assuming everybody understands what "omni-*" could possibly mean.

God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
(The last attribute means God does in fact know that he knows. [8-|] )

To keep it relevant to Logos I have a couple resources that open deists could read:
The Existence and Attributes of God http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/EXATTGOD
The Attributes of God, Volume One http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/ATTRGOD1
The Attributes of God, Volume Two http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/ATTRGOD2

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140406#Comment_140406

Just a few more open theism works that Logos would consider. The original post is looking for works that support open theism, not against it. Any good suggestions for works against open theism should be started in another thread, thank you all!

Basinger, David. The Case for Freewill Theism: A Philosophical Assessment. Downers
Grove, IL: IVP, 1996.

Borgman, Paul. Genesis: The Story We Haven’t Heard. Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity
Press, 2001.

Beilby, James and Eddy, Paul. Eds. Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views. Downers Grove,
IL: IVP, 2001.

________. Satan and the Problem of Evil: Constructing a Trinitarian Warfare
Theodicy. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2001.

________. God At War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict. Downers Grove: IVP, 1997

Hasker, William. Providence, Evil, and the Openness of God, London: Routledge, 2004.

Hayes, Joel S. The Foreknowledge of God; Or, The Omniscience of God Consistent with
His Own Holiness and Man’s Free Agency. Nashville: Publishing House of the
M[ethodist] E[piscopal] Church, South, 1890.

Pinnock, Clark H. and Cobb, John B. Jr., eds., Searching for an Adequate God: A
Dialogue Between Process and Free Will Theists, William B. Eerdmans, 2000

Polkinghorne, John. Ed. The Work of Love: Creation as Kenosis. Grand Rapids, MI:
Eerdmans, 2001

--thanks to a online compilation by John Sanders. There are more works and journal articles. This is merely a representation.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140415#Comment_140415

Apparently this Logos work is supportive of open theism: (it was on such a bibiography)

http://www.logos.com/products/details/4523

(specifically Goldingay's vol. 1 of Old Testament Theology)

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140405#Comment_140405

He has probably learned it by now if He's been reading this thread!

Thats funny on so many levels...

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140405#Comment_140405

He has probably learned it by now if He's been reading this thread!

Here is a short article that lays out just that viewpoint. But I don't think the author was laughing when he wrote it.

FOREKNOWLEDGE: There's More Than Meets God's Eye by Rev. James M. Harrison
http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/foreknow.htm

I may be reading him incorrectly but Harrison's conclusion seems to be you must either be fully Calvinist or Open Theist. I personally believe........

We need more Logos resources on open theism! (Did you really want to hear another theological tirade? [6] )

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140470#Comment_140470

Here's another one that I have in a print edition, which has an approving blurb on the back from Clark Pinnock. It describes ten models, including two chapters on the openness model, and then offers the author's own proposal which he calls a "Middle Knowledge Calvinist Model."

Tiessen, Terrance. Providence & Prayer: How Does God Work in the World? (IVP, 2000). Table of Contents.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140617#Comment_140617

Here's another Logos resource that has some coverage of openness theology and process theology:

No One Like Him: The Doctrine of God (John S. Feinberg)

I'm not sure where he finally comes down in the end, but it seems from the description that he gives a fair hearing to open theism:

Many contemporary theologians claim that the classical picture of God painted by Augustine and Aquinas is both outmoded and unbiblical. But rather than abandoning the traditional view completely, John Feinberg seeks a reconstructed model—one that reflects the ongoing advances in human understanding of God's revelation while recognizing the unchanging nature of God and His Word. Feinberg begins by exploring the contemporary concepts of God, particularly the openness and process views, and then studies God's being, nature, and acts—all to articulate a mediating understanding of God not just as the King, but the King who cares!

Kendall Sholtess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/140731#Comment_140731

I'd just like to say that I am sorry for saying what I did about Logos. My comments were unfair and I repent of them. I hope anyone who may have been offended will forgive me. I love Logos and I am looking forward to having more resources on it in the future. God bless you all!

[:)]

Kendall Sholtess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141189#Comment_141189

Oh, and by the way, I forgot to say on my last post, a big Beijing thank you to all who gave me suggestions. I am new to the Open Theism reading area, so I didn't know what resources to ask for other than the small amount that I mentioned. As my familiarity grows, I will no doubt add more to the list.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141189#Comment_141189

I'd just like to say that I am sorry for saying what I did about Logos.

Apology accepted! The thing is, we could do a line up of all the stupid things forum members have said--and probably just about every "MVP" would be included too. It would be an impressive list of quotations! Yeah, and most of them are sinners, too. [:O][;)]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141207#Comment_141207

lol, rereading my own post--not saying you were "stupid," I was just ahhh, ummm, I should've quite while I was ahead . . .

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141190#Comment_141190

Here's another suggestion, still in pre-pub but under development, so it probably shouldn't be too long a wait: Across the Spectrum: Understanding Issues in Evangelical Theology, by Greg Boyd and Paul Eddy (Baker Academic). Check out the Table of Contents in the preview pages. It's got a whole chapter on the Foreknowledge Debate, presenting the Arminian view, the Calvinist view, and finishing with the Open view. As you know, Boyd is the author of God of the Possible: A Biblical Introduction to the Open View of God (not yet predestined to end up in Logos format, though with God all things are possible [:)]), so we can be pretty sure where Across the Spectrum comes down on that topic. Looking through the TOC, it looks like there's some other meaty content in there. I've just put in an order for this book.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141384#Comment_141384

though with God all things are possible

I noticed the disciples try to limit God's choice between two fellows in Acts 1:23. God apparently did the impossible and drew a lot for Paul (Saul of Tarsus) instead. Since there are only 12 seats for Apostles in Heaven Paul & Matthias will have to duke it out....................

Much as we try to put God in a box, he just won't fit.[:D]

(Off-topic: ROSIE, I'll email you soon.)

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/141430#Comment_141430

Kendall,

I really like and enjoy the theory of Open Theism, although I would not classify my self as an open theist...at least not yet. I had to do some work on Open Theism in grad school and would be glad to share my resources with you. Shoot me an email to "dbuckham" (and the rest is) "gmail" (and of course that is) dot com.