Vulgar title on prepub

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Posts 173
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 2:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
Yes, I'm playing a bit of the provocateur, but I am seriously so aghast at the thread which illustrates an incredible ability to judge without any attempt to have any substance upon which to judge ...

Clearly by the nature of the title and subtitle, the author/publisher is seeking to play the provocateur. That we would ‘judge a book by it’s cover’ is the intention. The following quote is insightful as regards to the author’s standpoint.  “De La Torre said that his conversion to pro-gay activist began with a close friend he knew in the mid to late 80s who came out to him as gay. After praying together and attempting to cast demons from his friend, "lo and behold, he was still gay," De La Torre said. "And if anyone ever prayed hard to be heterosexual, it was him....And that led me to the conclusion that if he's gay, it's because God made him gay.” That suggests to me the author’s approach tends to eisegesis at the expense of exegesis. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 3:46 PM

A pastor whom I respect highly, left his very conservative church and became a military chaplain after counseling a gay member of his congregation. When "exegesis" counters God's creation, it is good to check for eisegesis in sheep's clothing. Please read the essay that this book is an expansion on which is available at https://www.newcityeastlake.com/letters/an-essay-on-the-death-of-christianity-in-the-u-s It may well rile you up, but at least your dander will be up for reasons actually related to the book.

Public disclosure. My foster son, my adopted daughter (who survived three failed adoptions) and her biological brother were all abused/damaged in homes that loudly proclaimed themselves to be Christian but in their actions showed themselves to be anything but. I could share stories that make you cry, that make you angry, that make you fear what we let them turn innocent children into. That predisposes me to be willing to consider De La Torre's evidence, to see if he established his point. By tomorrow evening, I should have finished the book.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 173
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 4:50 PM

MJ. Smith:
Please read the essay that this book is an expansion on which is available at https://www.newcityeastlake.com/letters/an-essay-on-the-death-of-christianity-in-the-u-s It may well rile you up, but at least your dander will be up for reasons actually related to the book.

The author certainly has an axe to grind and you are right I do have a hard time countenancing the painting of evangelicals with such a broad brush of vitriol and condemnation. Especially so when I know of so many who are laying their lives down for Christ and the gospel. That there are missteps and trespasses amongst those who identify as conservative is certain, just as there is amongst those who lean towards progressive. Hypocrisy is no respecter of ideology.

Peace

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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 5:14 PM

Hey y'all,

This thread is bordering on theological/political discussion. Please try to keep things within the forum guidelines.

Thanks!

Director, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 173
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 5:20 PM

I thought we might be getting close to the edge.

Thanks Ben for keeping us on the straight and narrow.Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 14 2019 7:05 PM

MWW:
The author certainly has an axe to grind

Thank you for taking the time to read the article and responding to it/it's author/the thrust of the book. I have no horse in the race for your evaluation of the book. I am a logician at heart who hates to see "logic" attached only to speculation.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 398
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 15 2019 7:02 AM

According to the product page, he is responsible for Liberation Theology for Armchair Theologians

While I like the “Armchair“ series in general as light reading, I found that particular book to be filled with partisan attacks and misrepresentation against those who questioned liberation theology and I felt it was beneath the standards of the series on those grounds. I despise those tactics, so, while the topic itself might be worth reading, that author is not one i will purchase any more books from.

(As a clarification, I myself am not an Evangelical, so I don’t have any personal concerns on that ground)

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Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 2:37 AM

Mattillo:

I haven’t read the book but it got me curious enough to read the product description from the publisher revie website: 

Short. Timely. Poignant. Pointed. Burying White Privilege is all of these and more. This is the book that everybody who cares about contemporary American Christianity will want to read. 

Many people wonder how white Christians could not only support Donald Trump for president but also rush to defend an accused child molester running for the US Senate. In a 2017 essay that went viral, Miguel A. De La Torre boldly proclaimed the death of Christianity at the hands of white evangelical nationalists. He continues sounding the death knell in this book.

De La Torre argues that centuries of oppression and greed have effectively ruined evangelical Christianity in the United States. Believers and clerical leaders have killed it, choosing profits over prophets. The silence concerning—if not the doctrinal justification of—racism, classism, sexism, and homophobia has made white Christianity satanic. Prophetically calling Christian nationalists to repentance, De La Torre rescues the biblical Christ from the distorted Christ of white Christian imagination.

"Many people wonder how white Christians could not only support Donald Trump for president but also rush to defend an accused child molester running for the US Senate. In a 2017 essay that went viral, Miguel A. De La Torre boldly proclaimed the death of Christianity at the hands of white evangelical nationalists. He continues sounding the death knell in this book."

Really why is it that ole whitey church member is guilty cause he or she voted for Trump? Who else was there? Hillary- good grief spare me. And speaking of pedophiles- the Dem's are loaded with, not to mention every other kind of sexual pervert on Earth- so every "political" persuasion is guilty to no end. 

His dog whistle words 'white privilege' speaks volumes. Every Nation on Earth is guilty- sinfully guilty- and its not limited to 'white' people. If your gonna die on a hill this isn't it- its not from the Lord.

Posts 3214
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 2:44 AM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

Hey y'all,

This thread is bordering on theological/political discussion. Please try to keep things within the forum guidelines.

Thanks!

And it may very well be but FL made a decision to sell this volume- knowing it had dog whistle words in its title and the content of the book would be generally offensive to a group of people. I know FL is based in Seattle- but has the liberal political influence taken root in the company?

Does not feel good when someone makes an unfair and unjust assumption about you when you just live their does it.

Posts 2032
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 4:31 AM

Whyndell Grizzard:

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

Hey y'all,

This thread is bordering on theological/political discussion. Please try to keep things within the forum guidelines.

Thanks!

And it may very well be but FL made a decision to sell this volume- knowing it had dog whistle words in its title and the content of the book would be generally offensive to a group of people. I know FL is based in Seattle- but has the liberal political influence taken root in the company?

Does not feel good when someone makes an unfair and unjust assumption about you when you just live their does it.

It's a book.  You can either buy it or not.  You seem to be implying that Logos shouldn't sell it, and this is where we are getting into dangerous territory.  You may not agree with the book, and I may not agree with the book, but when we start shouting down opposing viewpoints and accusing a company of being liberal whose job it is to sell books about theology containing various opinions, we are in trouble.  Calling Faithlife "liberal" for offering a book with which you disagree is wrong.  This reminds me of the Bart Ehrman discussion.  Because people disagree with his conclusions, they don't want his books in Logos.  This is so backwards.

I would rather Faithlife err on the side of offering resources and allow me to make the decision about whether to buy them or not than to make decisions based on whether or not some people might be offended.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 6:18 AM

Joseph Turner:
You seem to be implying that Logos shouldn't sell it,

I find myself defending Mr Snowflake (his vocabulary). Joseph, you set up a paper-tiger, and proceeded to do target practice. He first pointed to the warning. Then, pointed out Logos chose the book/title (among thousands, per Bob). I had the same thought. Don't get excited with noisy discussion. And be aware of customers' beliefs.

That said, generalities are part of the human brain (even the Christian scholars, as they try to fill 258 pages for eager readers). So, demanding statistical excellence (other commenters) is silly. If indeed, you're trying to introduce people to Christ (or more often, come back), you first have to do a 'Peter' ... "Oh no! I'm not one of THEM". Note the generality.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 7:13 AM

Joseph Turner:
I would rather Faithlife err on the side of offering resources and allow me to make the decision about whether to buy them or not than to make decisions based on whether or not some people might be offended.

Yes

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 7:50 AM

Joseph Turner:
It's a book.  You can either buy it or not.  You seem to be implying that Logos shouldn't sell it, and this is where we are getting into dangerous territory. 

Even though I find Critical Race Theory arguments to be vapid and non-biblical, I completely agree with JT and support FL's decision to publish this and any other book.  If they have seriously erred in choosing a particular title or series, the marketplace will be the corrective.

Rather than going on a rant against, or in favor, of this product in this forum, I would suggest all opinions should be submitted to FL as a book review to be published at the bottom of the product page such as G. Kraft has done below ...

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 6864
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 7:54 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Joseph Turner:
I would rather Faithlife err on the side of offering resources and allow me to make the decision about whether to buy them or not than to make decisions based on whether or not some people might be offended.

Yes

Then how come they didn’t do that with Dracula? 🧛‍♂️  Instead, they let the whiners have it their way.  The same should apply for every book.  People have two choices: To buy or not to buy, period!

DAL

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 8:02 AM

Matthew 12:36-37; 7:15-23. This applies equally to the author of the title discussed and to everyone myself included in this discussion.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 8:51 AM

This discussion reminds me of the time in the early days of the computer adoption when I was required to send reports to the typing pool and they retyped them before sending them out.

One particular typist had a penchant for adjusting what I sent to match what she though that I meant.

The request 'Please do not bastardise my text' got me reported for abusing a staff member.

The problem was illiteracy and that appears to be the problem folk are having with this title.

Posts 3733
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 10:17 AM

Perhaps this can help?

Now of course, I do know that a word meaning and usage is not necessarily the same as that of its ethymology. However, in this case, there is a direct line of descent and direct relationship to the social evolution of this language. In the last decades, the process with the growing adoption of vulgarity in English is often as such:

(1) Vulgar language is developed in social groups that relish in using such (e.g., all the f-words used in every grammatical function often several times in the same sentence). In this case, expressions like kiss my a**, insults like a**h*le, and crude sexual remarks such as "she has a nice a**" (I apologise for the very use of these even if solely for illustrative purposes) and so on. This is also related to the growing use in about the same time of the now a bit more out of fashion word "booty" to refer to this part of the body of a woman with definite crude sexual connotations. Important to keep in mind then that this uses inscribed themselves in a subculture that looked upon women as sexual objects and which focused on an all-out sexuality. 

(2) The use of such language becomes more and more widespread and accepted. More people stop thinking much of it and when adopted in the media or by actors, singers, and other popular or famous persons, they start to find it cool and in time even funny. Crossing boundaries is an ever important pull for many people. Trendy people talk like that and those who don't are biggots or religious prudes. Once popularised, further variants are developped. From referring to a person in terms of their rear either with sexual connotation or as insult, it evolved into just plain using it to refer or self-refer to a person (as in "yup, I'm a smart a**, where it no longer has a sexual connotation). Bad a** is there as well and includes also the adoption of words such as wicked and bad to actually mean "good" reflecting a stance that I heard no later than this am "good is lame". Although it can mean violent (negative sense) the expression is also used to mean really cool (e.g., this new cop is "kicka**").  

(3) People start repeating what they hear without thinking about where it comes from or no longer thinking about the meaning of what they say or minimising the significance thereof. This can be easily demonstrated with religious expressions. Many people who abuse the name Christ don't even think at all about the person Christ and the origins of such profanity. Many cultures around the world have adopted "omg" (sorry again for using this language to illustrate) just to imitate what they perceive as "cool" and trendy English (e.g., India, South Korea, I have even heard in France in the middle of French sentences!). 

For many of these people there is no difference in terms of how they function between using one type of vulgarity (e.g., an a** or b*tch variant) vs another (e.g., holy followed by an expletive). It should not be rocket science for Christians to realise that this cannot be a good thing and that we should not contribute to this trend. This author contributes. People who minimise that contribute in their own way as well because they seek to influence others in thinking that this should be okay among Christians. 

This is not about who is right and accusing one another. It's about promoting among ourselves "whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy" (Php 4:8) and in so doing promoting respect for God, respect for my neighbour and self, and godliness.

Although this discussion has derailed with regard to forums guidelines, hopefully it can help FL see that this is, at the very least, controversial. 

I am done here. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 11:59 AM

Whyndell Grizzard:
I know FL is based in Seattle-

Excuse me. Faithlife is not in Seattle. Bellingham is a very different environment. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 12:09 PM

Whyndell Grizzard:
And it may very well be but FL made a decision to sell this volume- knowing it had dog whistle words in its title and the content of the book would be generally offensive to a group of people.

FaithLife sells a lot of books that one or more groups of people find offensive. Since most of the groups of people most likely to find materials FL sells offensive scarcely buy anything from FaithLife (or even know it exists), discussions like this one are relatively rare on the forums.

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