Why do some Jews not believe that Jesus is Messiah

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This post has 15 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 3355
Milkman | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Nov 20 2019 7:22 AM

You know the old saying, "Baptist born, Baptist bred I'll be Baptist till I'm dead." Well that pretty well sums up the latter part of my life. I could change it to "MB born, Baptist bred...." Which brings me to this post.

For the greater part of my life I've always heard the slams against Judaism. They killed Messiah, they hated the Christians, they are next in line to the Antichrist etc...

Now I never gave it a second thought. It simply went in one ear and out the other. Never harbored any ill thought or action. Besides, my glass house is flimsy enough to start hurling rocks.

But I would like to find out why some in Judaism do not believe that the Jesus of the NT was and is the long looked for and prophesied Messiah.

I have heard it said that 'evangelicals' read into the OT passages that describe Jesus and use them as proof texts to confirm His Messianic title. I do. But am I a Christian sheeple? Just blindly following what my professors and pastors teach and preach and me by extension do to others.

So I'd love to find out why some Jewish ppl do not believe in Jesus as Messiah and come to my own conclusions rather than others telling me.

I have some resources in my library, but they are loosely described as 'Mene, mene, tekel…" weighed and found wanting. So if anyone can suggest some helpful resources that would be great!

I hope this is not offensive in anyway to anyone. If so, my apologies for my unintended ignorance on the subject.

mm.

mm.

Posts 1224
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 7:47 AM

Three resources by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Christian (and evangelical!) should be helpful:

The first is a basic treatise on the topic: https://www.logos.com/product/3902/jesus-was-a-jew

Both of these delve into deeper detail:

https://www.logos.com/product/3900/hebrew-christianity-its-theology-history-and-philosophy

https://www.logos.com/product/3905/messianic-christology .

The later of these is more of an apologetic work, but it does first flesh out many of the reasons the Jews rejected Jesus.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 3504
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 7:48 AM

I’m sure there are many great resources but the one I’ve liked thus far is: answering Jewish objections to Jesus

https://www.logos.com/product/3494/answering-jewish-objections-to-jesus 

https://www.logos.com/product/47649/answering-jewish-objections-to-jesus-vol-5 

Posts 138
Mendel Itkin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 4:22 PM

@Mattillo

You can also find answers to those objections by Rabbi Blumenthal,

see here: https://judaismresources.net/unanswered-video-series/

here: https://judaismresources.net/contra-brown/

here: https://judaismresources.net/supplement-to-contra-brown/

and here: https://prooftexts.wordpress.com/

@Milkman

Watch on YouTube for Rabbi Tovia Singer and Jews for Judaism. Maybe you can find your answers there. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 20 2019 4:35 PM

You can glean a great deal by going through the Talmud references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud in the section "Possible Talmudic references" and its many subsections. Note for those who dislike Wikipedia - I am not recommending the article which I have only very quickly skimmed. I am recommending it as a source of references to the original materials.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1920
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 21 2019 10:52 AM

Milkman:
So I'd love to find out why some Jewish ppl do not believe in Jesus as Messiah and come to my own conclusions rather than others telling me.

Not to be flippant, but Romans 9 - 11.

-Donnie

Posts 450
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 2:18 AM

Donnie Hale:

Milkman:
So I'd love to find out why some Jewish ppl do not believe in Jesus as Messiah and come to my own conclusions rather than others telling me.

Not to be flippant, but Romans 9 - 11.

-Donnie

Donnie is right in my view as there is more at work here than simply knowledge or the arguments people pose.

Personally, I imagine that the apostle Paul would be the first to encourage us to study the Jewish faith, gain insights from their theology and commentaries and grow in our knowledge of the early church as a Jewish group. I get much satisfaction from reading of early Judaism(s) and its development to our time. We've got some wonderful resources within Logos and more out there which can help our understanding. I've recommended it before, but I loved reading the work by Rabbi Binyamin Lau called "The Sages" (First Maggid English edition, 2010) which includes the Second Temple period. Its easy to read and you can see the author as both scholar and man of faith. In a sense he finds ground between the study of Torah by academia and by the rabbis - something with which Jacob Neusner seems to have struggled.  Keep well  Paul   

Posts 10623
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 5:44 AM

I doubt the apostle Paul had any serious hopes for the jews. And the writer of John wasn't too worried, stomping all over them.  Paul's argument was hopeless, since he first had to overcome 'the promise' with lots of dirty gentiles, and then pour salt in the wound, by pointing out the jews were really bad (an argument common among both jewish sectarians and gentiles).

I'm not jewish, but I suspect gentiles have trouble understanding being born into the safety of a diety's hands. True, 'Christian' is statistically, 'your parents'. Christians like 'born again' but the 'again' was the jews ... for gentiles the logic had to be changed.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 450
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 3:37 PM

Denise:

I doubt the apostle Paul had any serious hopes for the jews. And the writer of John wasn't too worried, stomping all over them.  Paul's argument was hopeless, since he first had to overcome 'the promise' with lots of dirty gentiles, and then pour salt in the wound, by pointing out the jews were really bad (an argument common among both jewish sectarians and gentiles).

I'm not jewish, but I suspect gentiles have trouble understanding being born into the safety of a diety's hands. True, 'Christian' is statistically, 'your parents'. Christians like 'born again' but the 'again' was the jews ... for gentiles the logic had to be changed.

While we may have different views about the issues you mention especially about Paul's "hopes for the Jews" and '"his argument was hopeless", I'm reminded that what Paul wrote in his letters deserves honour as God's Word and not purely his own.  Whatever Paul said and the way He said it was and is inspired truth and intended to bring people to the truth. This truth is not simply intellectual, but one which on acceptance brings forth a new human being - being 'born again' if you like. Keep well  Paul     

Posts 10623
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 4:47 PM

Paul:
While we may have different views about the issues you mention especially about Paul's "hopes for the Jews" and '"his argument was hopeless"

Don't confuse the man with the writings. And remember, they split up their 'gospels' (Peter vs Paul). Quite wisely.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 450
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 5:20 PM

Denise:

Paul:
While we may have different views about the issues you mention especially about Paul's "hopes for the Jews" and '"his argument was hopeless"

Don't confuse the man with the writings. And remember, they split up their 'gospels' (Peter vs Paul). Quite wisely.

No confusion here.  In a real sense Peter and Paul did nothing, but God did everything and their writing is His Word.  I'm not meaning to criticize you in any way, just expressing why I try to be careful with these writings. Keep well Paul     

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 22 2019 5:59 PM

Okay, I'll butt in again suggesting that what Judaism has seen as messianic is a good way to see how Jesus fails to fit the pattern e.g. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 729
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2019 9:03 AM

Hi MM:

You could also look at the following and use L8 to check more details to see what comes up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1NhS2mhS4k

Audio is not very good. If you have an App that allows you to do a transcript of the video, please then post it. LOL.

I read long time ago (so may not be very accurate), that when among some of the persons that resuscitated when Christ died in the cross were two ex members of the religious authorities in the time of Jesus, and went to talk with such religious authorities.

The religious authorities supposedly got in panic because the resuscitated men mentioned something about the Messiah, which would put the live authorities in a  "Deicide" situation. So they rushed to try to bribe the guards of the tomb to corroborate a story of the stealing of the body, etc.

The problem with the hypothesis of the stealing of the body, is that in Roman times, they could easily find if such a hoax was carried out. They had informants, infiltrators, etc. all kind of structure to find out if such thing occurred. They could easily check the area to find the body if such was the case.

Not only did they not found the body, but then among the disciples miracles started to happen again, just as had happened before Jesus died, pointing to the veracity of Jesus resurrection, as the authorities (Roman), knew very well that the miracle worker was Jesus.

I have not been able to find the article about the resurrected ex religious authorities men, so hope you have better searching skills than me. If you find it please share the link.

P.S.

Just saw the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNGLZvtRoiU

The other side of the coin. Good audio, closed captions, amazing testimony.

Enjoy.

Posts 1616
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 24 2019 10:34 AM

Decades ago on a religious debate forum, I recall a Jewish participant basically saying this:

If Jesus is the messiah, then he would have brought in the messianic age.

But in so many ways the world we live in is not the messianic age.

But Christians, being so nice have decided to give Jesus a second chance....

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Orthodox Silver, Lutheran Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 729
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 25 2019 4:06 AM

Hi Ken:

surprised that no one gave an answer.

Conversely it could be the other way, that Jesus is giving us a chance:

Did the Jewish participant recognize that the Being that Daniel saw had a sash around his waist? What is the meaning of that? That such Being was a servant of course.

Jesus was to come as a servant to die for our sins. In Philippians is explained that Jesus having the form of God (Angel of Yahweh), He emptied Himself of it all and became similar to humans (similar to Adam nature before the fall, and probably to have equal conditions when the test came).

Why similar? because John said that when the Holy Spirit came down atop Jesus He remained, and no human nature could resist that until Jesus Himself died for us in the cross.

So then the loved Apostle John is allowed to see glorified Jesus Christ in a vision in Patmos (Jesus being the New Temple of God where the fullness of Deity dwells bodily).

But note that the sash is worn across the chest designating Him as judge.

Why He has not come and brought the Messianic age?

Liberal Christians saying that the story is a myth (when there were 500 witnesses to the resurrection that in modern law conditions is considered bona fide evidence).

Then Scholastic experts knowing the writings of Luther, Calvin, Barth, etc. so well that can tell when there is a misquote, yet not realizing that according to the internal evidence of the Bible Jesus could not have given the long baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 because that is liturgical speech of later time, and spurious to the Gospel because is an anachronism.

Then you have those saying that Jesus is not around to have koinonia with, invalidating the promise in John 14:21 and that Jonathan Edwards testifies is true when had an encounter with resurrected Jesus in 1737.

Etc.

So we must be honest: if Jesus came, we would all fail the green card test to go to heaven as legal aliens. And we must remember that we are the grafted branch, not original, but by the mercy of God allowed to get there.

So yes maybe due to some of the above Jesus has not manifested as He would like.

Then we must understand that the Joseph of Egypt story is a type of the Messiah. Before he revealed to his brothers he ordered all to move out, to leave (that included his gentile bride which is a type of us the Gentile Bride of Jesus). When he revealed to his brothers they were in panic for what they had done.

Joseph reassured them and let them know that what had happened was God's plan to save life.

When resurrected Jesus comes (now as judge (sash across chest)), Rev 1:7 will come to pass. God had to put a veil in Israel otherwise they would not have being involved in the crucifixion of Jesus. 

Jesus had to be crucified, and the High Priest knew that from God. John 11:50. 

So yes, Messianic age as expected by the Jews is to come, and it will happen when Jesus as judge comes. We both must be in shipshape orthopraxis and orthoscience.  They better be trying hard to keep the law, (and have the weightier matters of the law operating in their lives), and we better be full of the Holy Spirit so that we are not deceived like they tried to deceive the Galatians. Galatians 3: 1 - 6.

We must never second guess God, He is good and His hesed is forever. He has a perfect plan, it may look to us like is not such, but His timing and ways are way different to ours, because  He is the Creator and we are not, we are finite creatures depending on Him for our very survival.

Meditate on the following:

Isaiah 9:6, Zechariah 14:9, Revelation 1: 12-18, Revelation 7:17.

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,to us a son is given;and the government shall be upon his shoulder,and his name shall be calledWonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Zechariah 14:9 LEB

 And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; on that day Yahweh will be one and his name one.

Revelation 7:17

For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,and he will guide them to springs of living water,and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. 

So where did the modern term person come from in the trinity definition, when the original was hypostasis which was translated as Latin: Personae which meant a mask worn by an actor (much to the reluctance of Tertullian who accepted because Jesus is the image of the invisible God)?

How did the term Personae (meaning mask worn by an actor) turn into modern term Person?

Hypostasis was used to refer to what we perceived as a real presence of God, but did not quite understand such. God is beyond human, so anthropomorphism does not apply to His description. Acknowledging that the term hypostasis (and divine at that), was created. It just happens that has nothing to do with the modern term Person.

Definitively we would not pass the heaven green card test, so God is patient, and waits for us to kickstart and use our rationality, relationally, and creativity to study better.

Peace and grace. 

P.S. I read some of the material shared via link about Is 9:6.  Not all branches group of Judaism think like that. There are others that do think the verse refers to the coming Messiah, the Son of God, who will come to teach here on Earth.

But that is beside the point. Let's get to the nitty gritty:

In Jesus times, that area was know to Rome to be a problem province. Revolts, upheavals, etc. ... the lot. Romans had a whole system in place to check what was going on by whom and how. If the resurrection of Jesus was a hoax, then they would have found out really quick, but no, they could not find the body, the miracles started happening again, the followers of this so called Messiah, were willing to die for what they thought was a real encounter with a resurrected Being.

Now if the truth is sought for real, did the veil to the holy of holies part? Was the temple destroyed as predicted by Jesus? on some other grounds, was He the one that opened the eyes of a born blind person? that should hint something very important to the believers of Yahweh.

Do not confuse Christendom with real followers of Jesus Christ. Real followers know God is one, and as Zechariah predicted will be king and with one name. Zec 14:9. Yahshua Messiah is no joke for such believers, He is our Lord and Savior, He will come back to judge and to set the age to come.

Just as the Angel of Yahweh manifested to real humans in the OT, He can manifest to true Jewish believers that ask Him to tell them if things are so.

We are not in opposite camps, to you it seems like we worship that which we do not know, give us the benefit of the doubt, just as we give you the benefit of believing you are the ones that God entrusted to deliver His oracles in times past.

Posts 397
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 25 2019 12:43 PM

Milkman:
if anyone can suggest some helpful resources that would be great!

Just a friendly reminder to keep to the original request for recommended resources, rather than straying into theological debate/opinion. Thanks!

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

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