Montanari, Franco. The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek. Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015. Page numbers???

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Posts 34
Mykola Leliovskyi | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 26 2019 2:27 AM

Does the Logos edition of Montanari, Franco. The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek. Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015. Not have page numbers?? How can that be?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 26 2019 6:43 AM

Looks like you're right.

The recently shipped Greek Etymology Dictionary, and Greek Linguistics Encyclopedia both have pages numbers (and volume, where multiple). I wonder if the difference is in the publisher's digital file provided.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 34
Mykola Leliovskyi | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 26 2019 6:45 AM

Is there something we can do for Logos to fix that? It's sort of a bummer since it cannot be properly cited and, hence, used in academic writing.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 26 2019 8:48 AM

Mykola Leliovskyi:

Is there something we can do for Logos to fix that? It's sort of a bummer since it cannot be properly cited and, hence, used in academic writing.

Good question. Staff often don't appear, even for bugs.

I'm guessing, it's not intensional per se.

I have 23 greek lexicons and such. The semantic don't have pages numbers. Nor Rick's Analytic. But the rest do. Even the old ones that Logos dug up (eg Attic, Sophicles), pocket lexicons (!), other analytic, and of course the major academic (LS, BDAG, TDNT, TLNT, etc).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 26 2019 9:17 AM

Strictly speaking the files provided to us were the digital edition which has additional content not found in the print edition.

I'd prefer to add page numbers but when they don't necessarily align with the print edition it makes it difficult.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 26 2019 9:17 AM

Mykola Leliovskyi:
It's sort of a bummer since it cannot be properly cited and, hence, used in academic writing.

I don't think that's true (especially for such a work!) in its absolute phrasing. I understand that many style guides have explicit guidance for how to cite electronic works - up to the point that citing eBooks and Logos editions as if you had seen the paper copy may not acceptable. Other than that, many citations from works in the dictionary/lexicon genre would refer to the entry you consulted, not necessarily the page (or "column" as was often used back in the pre-electronic past over here when I did academic work).  

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 7
Jeffrey L. Wipplinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 7 2020 2:31 PM

I also find myself very frustrated with this resource. I am in the middle of writing my thesis, and because this digital resource lacks page numbers, it is almost worthless. In order for me to properly cite this resource, I have to provide a page number. This leaves me in the predicament that I either go on Amazon and buy a hard copy, or go to the library and look up over 50 words I'm citing.

Either of these options negate the purpose of buying it in Logos. I've spent a few hours on the phone today with people at level 1 and level 2 technical support, and after all that, I was told to submit a message only available within the program (which I did). It felt like I submitted my concern into a black hole. I'm writing here in hopes that someone within Logos will see this and dialogue with me on this.

I have page numbers in BDAG, LSJ, as well as numerous other resources. I'd like to respectfully request that Logos address this issue and implement a fix.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 7 2020 3:17 PM

Jeffrey L. Wipplinger:

I also find myself very frustrated with this resource. I am in the middle of writing my thesis, and because this digital resource lacks page numbers, it is almost worthless. In order for me to properly cite this resource, I have to provide a page number. This leaves me in the predicament that I either go on Amazon and buy a hard copy, or go to the library and look up over 50 words I'm citing.

Either of these options negate the purpose of buying it in Logos. I've spent a few hours on the phone today with people at level 1 and level 2 technical support, and after all that, I was told to submit a message only available within the program (which I did). It felt like I submitted my concern into a black hole. I'm writing here in hopes that someone within Logos will see this and dialogue with me on this.

I have page numbers in BDAG, LSJ, as well as numerous other resources. I'd like to respectfully request that Logos address this issue and implement a fix.

Jeffrey, I'm sorry for your frustrations.

Strictly speaking the files provided to us were the digital edition which has additional content not found in the print edition. This is a scenario where the digital edition does not equal the print edition.

I'd prefer to add page numbers but when they don't necessarily align with the print edition it makes it difficult/inaccurate.

Posts 7
Jeffrey L. Wipplinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 8 2020 5:02 AM

Kyle,

I understand your position, but I'm not sure you understand mine. It doesn't matter how much additional content the digital edition contains. For someone like me who is writing a thesis, the lack of page numbers makes this resource useless.

BDAG, LSJ, and many other titles have no problem including page numbers. Perhaps BrillDAG could supply you with a digital edition that includes page numbers? That would be the easiest fix

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 8 2020 11:10 AM

Jeffrey L. Wipplinger:
I understand your position, but I'm not sure you understand mine. It doesn't matter how much additional content the digital edition contains. For someone like me who is writing a thesis, the lack of page numbers makes this resource useless.

What standards are you using? Most academic standards now make allowance for unpaged electronic resources which I'd be glad to research for you.. I can't imagine standards that require made-up page numbers.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 8 2020 1:09 PM

IIRC Brill deliberately maintains a digital corpus for Montanari to allow updates. Hence, the Logos version is an analogue of that corpus.

To cite, you may have to dive into how e-works are referred to in your style guide. My down and dirty trick: s.v. (short for sub voce) could be a useful pointer.

Posts 55
LW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 8 2020 10:32 PM

"It doesn't matter how much additional content the digital edition contains." Respectfully, it does matter, even for page numbers, how much additional content it contains. The digital edition is not the print edition; so even if the words you cite in your thesis are in the print edition, since the digital edition has more content, that would, if it were (or becomes) paginated by Brill (note, not Logos), result in different page numbers for many or most words. Maybe some words aren't even in the printed, paginated, edition, in which case it would be wrong to locate them on any printed page. Besides that, they might have updated entries, in which case you wouldn't want to cite them as though they were in the original printed edition. Universities, and their professors, and their students, have to accept that digital resources get cited in their own way, often not with page numbers. Departments that deal with Greek texts are used to digital citations, such as from the TLG. They have accepted it for years. If you know how to cite the digital works, in Logos, TLG, etc., properly in your thesis, but your supervisor won't accept it after you show him or her evidence and explain the issues, you may need to go to your department head. because you have the right and probably obligation to use digital tools, such as the Brill GE in digital form. You shouldn't be prevented from using and citing more up-to-date electronic resources in their own proper way, with some other number instead of a page number. Good luck there!

Posts 7
Jeffrey L. Wipplinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 9 2020 12:25 PM

I agree with you statement and am very careful when citing sources to make sure I'm referring to the correct page. You took my quote out of context. I agree a digital version that contains more information can be of significant value, just not to those of us who want to cite it. The point I was making is that if the digital version contained some magnificent fact not contained in the printed edition, it would be of no use to me and everyone else who bought the digital resource intending to cite it. Let me show you what I mean. When copying and pasting something under the word θεός in BrillDAG, this is the footnote:

Franco Montanari, ed. Madeleine Goh and Chad Schroeder, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015).

However, when I cite the same word from BDAG this is the footnote:

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 450.

There are other ways to cite a digital reference besides using the page number. However, the BrillDAG footnote doesn't list any of those. It's simply a reference to the entire book.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 9 2020 1:52 PM

Jeffrey L. Wipplinger:
There are other ways to cite a digital reference besides using the page number. However, the BrillDAG footnote doesn't list any of those. It's simply a reference to the entire book.

So are you saying that the problem is that you have to manually correct the reference? That is true in a number of resources even with page numbers as the FL routine for footnotes and bibliography entries is imperfect. I thought you meant your standards didn't permit electronic resources which is why I asked what standards you were using. Now I'm a bit confused.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 55
LW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 9 2020 11:32 PM

Thanks for the reply, Jeffrey. I took the sentence that I quoted in the context of your demand that Logos insert page numbers even for new and modified BrillDAG entries that never had page numbers. I think the key issue is this:

"When copying and pasting something under the word θεός in BrillDAG, this is the footnote:

Franco Montanari, ed. Madeleine Goh and Chad Schroeder, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015)."

That would only be part of the footnote. As I mentioned, "digital resources get cited in their own way, often not with page numbers." Although you may not be using the SBL style, you can adapt what you see at https://sblhs2.com/2017/03/30/citing-reference-works-2-lexica/. Let's take a more complex example of something you might like to cite - let's say, the translation of Her. 6.11.2 under the verb ἔχω. Adding to your footnote above, you could put:

Franco Montanari, ed. Madeleine Goh and Chad Schroeder, The Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek (Leiden; Boston: Brill, 2015), s.v. "1. ἔχω," 2.b.

I would recommend adding the version of the Logos resource in there somewhere too, because wording could change in future versions: LLS:GEMONTANARI 2019-10-11T19:58:03Z. You can find that with CTRL-SHIFT-I.

Posts 7
Jeffrey L. Wipplinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 10 2020 8:27 AM

Thank you for the replies. Regarding this resource and the writing project I'm currently undergoing, I'll just go to the library and look up each entry by hand and include the page number.

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 10 2020 1:11 PM

Paradoxically, some house styles allow you to omit page numbers when citing lexicons.

Just do what fits your situation.

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