The Trinity

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 3 2019 2:37 PM | Locked

I see that the Trinity is this months topic. Can anyone suggest the best books (preferably in logos but not necessarily on discount) with 'arguments' that could be useful when dealing with persons who do not accept the conventional view of the Trinity? 

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Robert Neely | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 3 2019 5:07 PM | Locked

i highly recommend this one

https://www.logos.com/product/52776/oneness-pentecostals-and-the-trinity 

good preview of it here 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 3 2019 6:43 PM | Locked

JohnB:
dealing with persons who do not accept the conventional view

I know you're carefully tippy-toeing, but make sure your review breaks out between the various Christian doctrines (typically 3rd century and thereafter, as Robert demos), vs earlier 2nd Temple concepts/wording best displayed in Enochian Judaism (the more technical  contra to 'trinity').

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 238
Charles | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 3 2019 11:27 PM | Locked

An excellent site which speaks about Oneness Pentecostalism and the Trinity:

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Apologetics/Oneness_pentecostalism.htm

In Christ,

Charles

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Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 12:57 AM | Locked

Robert Neely:

i highly recommend this one

https://www.logos.com/product/52776/oneness-pentecostals-and-the-trinity 

good preview of it here 

Boyd’s shoddy research into Oneness Pentecostals is a classic example of straw man attack—that has been thoroughly refuted point by point in this work:  https://mikeblume.com/dryframe.htm

Please pardon the self reference, but, if you’re *SINCERELY* interested in allowing Oneness Pentecostals to speak for themselves you can view my blog that has an emphases on original languages and exegesis.  While I certainly have a lot to learn still, I’ve been researching this issue for approx. 25 years now (I used to attend a Trinitarian church until honest research into the Scriptures forced me out if I were to remain faithful to God’s Word).  

Link below:

https://apostolicacademics.com/

Posts 352
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 1:04 AM | Locked

Charles:

An excellent site which speaks about Oneness Pentecostalism and the Trinity:

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Apologetics/Oneness_pentecostalism.htm

In Christ,

Charles

Since we’re posting links, in the spirit of equality for those wanting to hear both sides out (and since Admin. has allowed y’all to post anti-Oneness links), here’s an excellent site which speaks about the errors of the Trinity:

https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/

https://apostolicacademics.com/

If interested, here’s a couple of congenial-scholarly debates on this topic w. a member of the CRI site (Robert Bowman)—who was also connected w. the link you posted above:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGcE1U2ZH48

Here’s another one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6LXshQf2i0

Much more available upon request.

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 1:29 AM | Locked

Puddin’:
Boyd’s shoddy research into Oneness Pentecostals is a classic example of straw man attack—that has been thoroughly refuted point by point in this work:  https://mikeblume.com/dryframe.htm

A process theologian like Dr. Boyd trying to correct false views on the Trinity can't really go well...

My suggestion would be "The forgotten Trinity" by James White. https://www.logos.com/product/43398/the-forgotten-trinity

He works very closely with the Greek text, but explains everything so that non Greek speakers can understand.

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Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 1:32 AM | Locked

Jan Krohn:

Puddin’:
Boyd’s shoddy research into Oneness Pentecostals is a classic example of straw man attack—that has been thoroughly refuted point by point in this work:  https://mikeblume.com/dryframe.htm

A process theologian like Dr. Boyd trying to correct false views on the Trinity can't really go well...

My suggestion would be "The forgotten Trinity" by James White. https://www.logos.com/product/43398/the-forgotten-trinity

He works very closely with the Greek text, but explains everything so that non Greek speakers can understand.

Actually, White has openly conceded that his “Trinity” consists of “3 divine individuals, each w. their own SEPARATE centers of eternal consciousness’s apart from the other 2 divine individuals” 😳—his own words.

Or, you can see my blog (and my debate w. White) wherein I offer a point by point rejoinder to White’s attacks (😊).  

Again, please pardon the self reference (☹️):  https://apostolicacademics.com/2016/03/02/response-to-dr-james-white/

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 2:39 AM | Locked

Puddin’:
but in all sincerity the link you posted demonstrates little more than the usual dodge-ball antics of Trinitarians

Come on Puddin' - you usually use your language more carefully. And you make it so tempting to up the language anty Zip it!

BTW can someone explain to me the original post? Where is the topic "Trinity"?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 3:26 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Puddin’:
but in all sincerity the link you posted demonstrates little more than the usual dodge-ball antics of Trinitarians

Come on Puddin' - you usually use your language more carefully. And you make it so tempting to up the language anty Zip it!

BTW can someone explain to me the original post? Where is the topic "Trinity"?

There you go -  https://www.logos.com/topic-of-the-month

Keep well Paul 

Posts 352
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 3:39 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
Come on Puddin' - you usually use your language more carefully. And you make it so tempting to up the language anty Zip it!

Okay MJ—you’re right.  I have edited my response.  A little difficult to not return the fire when folks are posting inflammatory links like above.  Sooo much more I want to say, but I have taken your advice (which I wouldn’t do from just anyone🤓).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 12:13 PM | Locked

Puddin’:
 A little difficult to not return the fire when folks are posting inflammatory links like above

Thank you.  Believe me, I know what it is like to be in your position. But unlike forest fires where a back fire can help control the main fire, in the forums fire + fire can quickly become a raging inferno which harms everyone. Quiet facts are much more effective.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 12:14 PM | Locked

Paul:

Thanks - I'd never seen that!!

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 12:31 PM | Locked

Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

Clearly I was not as carefully tip toeing as I thought I was. I apologise to anyone  who felt marginalised by any comment on the thread. That is not what I would ever want. 

Any thoughts on the following?  ie does the author put over his/her views in a clear manner that I can use to share with an interested lay person.  
 
https://www.logos.com/product/30811/making-sense-of-the-trinity-three-crucial-questions ?

https://www.logos.com/product/30809/god-in-three-persons-a-contemporary-interpretation-of-the-trinity

and any others on https://www.logos.com/topic-of-the-month  



Quote...  According to the church father Augustine anyone who denies the Trinity is in danger of losing her salvation, but anyone who tries to understand the Trinity is in danger of losing her mind. 
For "her" please read "their"!

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 3:41 PM | Locked

JohnB:
I see that the Trinity is this months topic. Can anyone suggest the best books (preferably in logos but not necessarily on discount) with 'arguments' that could be useful when dealing with persons who do not accept the conventional view of the Trinity?

Well, if St. Augustine's De Trinitate isn't your cup of tea, I highly recommend the Dominican theologian Gilles Emery's The Trinity: An Introduction to Catholic Doctrine on the Triune God, which is very readable and rather thorough, both historically aware and attentive to Scripture. It also sports a helpful glossary at the end; you will be interested in the entry on Modalism. Please do not be put off by the title (or author); the 'classical' Protestant understanding of the Trinity does not differ from Catholic doctrine on the Trinity. (As a historical matter, the Reformers inherited, as it were, their understanding of the Trinity from the Catholic Church.)

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Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 8:28 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Puddin’:
 A little difficult to not return the fire when folks are posting inflammatory links like above

Thank you.  Believe me, I know what it is like to be in your position. But unlike forest fires where a back fire can help control the main fire, in the forums fire + fire can quickly become a raging inferno which harms everyone. Quiet facts are much more effective.

Good analogy.

Also, there are several straw man attacks on this thread.  Oneness Pentecostals are *NOT* “Modalists”—and I have never even heard anyone in Oneness use that derogatory term to explain what we believe.  We openly and vehemently oppose ancient Modalism, which, as always, was defined by hostile witnesses such as Tertullian (whom, BTW, was an ontological subordinationist—and, comically, would be labeled a “heretic” by contemporary Trinitarians🤫).  

But, even Tertullian stated in his Against Praxeas (which I have) that the Oneness Believers of his day “constitute the majority of believers😳).”  Shall we talk about Ignatius who has been classified by J.N.D. Kelly, Virginia Corwin, etc. as a “Modalistic Monarchian”—as my blog linked above quotes. 

To illustrate, how would Trinnies like it if we continually referred to them as Tritheists—when Trinitarians vehemently *SAY* otherwise (although...well, never mind🙄).

Might want to allow others to actually speak for themselves prior to attempting to define what we believe—on both sides of the debate.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 9:38 PM | Locked

Puddin’:
 Oneness Pentecostals are *NOT* “Modalists”—and I have never even heard anyone in Oneness use that derogatory term to explain what we believe.

It would have never occurred to me that someone would take "modalist" as negative; reminds me of when we had a forum user who did not know "papist" was a pejorative

Do you have a reference for the Tertullian quote? My attempt to find it via google have led to amusing not useful answers. I have found this:

The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God; not understanding that, although He is the one only God, He must yet be believed in with His own οἰκονομία

Tertullian, “Against Praxeas,” in Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. Peter Holmes, vol. 3, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 598–599.

or

All simple people, not to say the unwise and unprofessional (who always constitute the majority of believers), since even the rule itself removes them from the plurality of “the gods” of this world to “the one true God,”* become greatly terrified through their failure to understand that,* while He must be believed to be one, it is along with His economy, because they judge that economy, implying a number and arrangement of trinity, is really a division of unity, whereas unity, deriving trinity from itself, is not destroyed by it, but made serviceable.

W. J. Sparrow-Simpson and W. K. Lowther Clarke, eds., Tertullian: Against Praxeas, trans. Alexander Souter, Translations of Christian Literature: Series II: Latin Texts (London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1920), 31.

but it doesn't quite say what you implied.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 4 2019 11:29 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Puddin’:
 Oneness Pentecostals are *NOT* “Modalists”—and I have never even heard anyone in Oneness use that derogatory term to explain what we believe.

It would have never occurred to me that someone would take "modalist" as negative; reminds me of when we had a forum user who did not know "papist" was a pejorative

Do you have a reference for the Tertullian quote? My attempt to find it via google have led to amusing not useful answers. I have found this:

The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God; not understanding that, although He is the one only God, He must yet be believed in with His own οἰκονομία

Tertullian, “Against Praxeas,” in Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. Peter Holmes, vol. 3, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 598–599.

or

All simple people, not to say the unwise and unprofessional (who always constitute the majority of believers), since even the rule itself removes them from the plurality of “the gods” of this world to “the one true God,”* become greatly terrified through their failure to understand that,* while He must be believed to be one, it is along with His economy, because they judge that economy, implying a number and arrangement of trinity, is really a division of unity, whereas unity, deriving trinity from itself, is not destroyed by it, but made serviceable.

W. J. Sparrow-Simpson and W. K. Lowther Clarke, eds., Tertullian: Against Praxeas, trans. Alexander Souter, Translations of Christian Literature: Series II: Latin Texts (London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1920), 31.

but it doesn't quite say what you implied.

That’s the quote (the first one is more accurate I think just off the top of my head).  Tertullian was writing against an early “Modalist” named Praxeas, who some believe may have been Sabellius (I have not checked this out).  The point is, if contemporary Oneness Pentecostals are the supposed equivalent of ancient modalism—then according to Tertullian writing in ca. AD 200—they were the “majority of believers.”  Trinitarian apologists are not free to lump us in w. ancient Modalism...and then disregard or explain away the fact that they constituted the majority of believers (I have an entire word document rife w. direct quotes from early writers that speak to this end).

Just pointing out the inconsistent approach—not leveling this charge at you (I have always enjoyed your congenial, yet academic approach).

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2019 12:23 AM | Locked

Puddin’:
Tertullian (whom, BTW, was an ontological subordinationist—and, comically, would be labeled a “heretic” by contemporary Trinitarians🤫)

I don't believe all Trinitarians would think that.

Regardless of what group we're talking about, it seems to me that there exists a diversity, a range of beliefs. Members of a group don't think exactly the same, or believe exactly the same, or come to the same conclusions.

Puddin’:
Might want to allow others to actually speak for themselves prior to attempting to define what we believe—on both sides of the debate.

Church, for me, was the inexpressible joy in the worship of God. I was happy when God was my focus.

The downside was the expectation that I should believe what the denomination believed. It made me wonder, has God's house become man's house?

Perhaps I am overly simplistic or overly idealistic, but it seems that there was a contentment in simply worshipping God, rather than disagreeing over what we should believe about God. Conflicts like that just took the focus off God, and made man more important than God.

We can be vain, or arrogant, or stubborn, or boastful, or proud, or selfish, etc., but God is not like us. He's perfect; upright. God's judgements are not wrong.

I think we all can get caught up with thinking and saying what seems right to us, but isn't necessarily good or acceptable or pleasing in God's sight. If there are two sides of the debate, perhaps they're not Trinitarian vs. Oneness. Perhaps they're God's ways vs. man's ways?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2019 12:43 AM | Locked

Puddin’:

and then disregard or explain away the fact that they constituted the majority of believers (I have an entire word document rife w. direct quotes from early writers that speak to this end).

Just pointing out the inconsistent approach—

Ah ... I see we put things in a very different frame of reference - because I define "church" primarily as "those who worship together" (a gross over-simplification), I see Tertullian as saying that the majority of the assembly stumble over the concept of the Trinity despite proclaiming it in the creed (rule of faith). Whereas you appear to be more concerned with the beliefs themselves even though they are contrary to what the church members profess. If that is a reasonably fair description of your perspective, it is easy to guess how far back in our presuppositions we would have to go to correctly understand each other's position. A useful tidbit to stick in memory as you represent a tradition I know little about.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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