Septuagint's awful rendering of Isaiah 9:5/6

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Chrisser | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 21 2020 9:09 AM

I've tried to find an explanation, whether it be theological, historical, or better yet, a variant reading of Isaiah 9:5-6. 

angelos megales boules

as it happens the lxx just has a butchered rendering of 9:5-6. the worst part isn't "Angel of great counsel" it's the lack of "everlasting Father". "Angel of great counsel" is acceptable, if weird, as a rendering of the angel of Yahweh. I'm annoyed substantially but this variation. What makes it even more complicated, is that the MT's rendering is clearly the original one. It's rather shocking that the MT is MORE CHRISTOLOGICAL than the LXX. This is bizarre enough for me to think of throwing an tantrum :D. I kid. Regardless, is there anything out there? It appears to be counsel, NOT "council". so I could not specifically say this is the angel of Yahweh who heads the divine council with boules.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 1:02 PM

Brenton LXX En For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.  From the Greek

LES [LXX] Because a child was born to us; a son was given to us whose leadership came upon his shoulder; and his name is called “Messenger of the Great Council,” for I will bring peace upon the rulers and health to him. From the Greek

ESV For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. from the Hebrew 

Geneva For unto us a Childe is borne,& unto us a sonne is givẽ: & the government is upõ his shulder, & he shal call his name Wonderful, Coũseller, The mightie God, The everlastĩg Father, The prince of peace, from the Hebrew 

NET For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. from the Hebrew 

First pass: Difference between the Greek text and the Hebrew text.  And maybe a difference between the Hebrew text used in Alexandra in 200 BC [Translated into the Greek before 200 BC or so] and the Hebrew text used in Jerusalem in 400 AD [date for Jerome]   [The KJV [form 1611] is 400 years old. as is the DR [from 1609]  the two, perhaps different, Hebrew texts were 600 year between two hundred years longer than we have had the KJV or the DR ] 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 2:32 PM

Chrisser:
I've tried to find an explanation, whether it be theological, historical, or better yet, a variant reading of Isaiah 9:5-6

First, are you looking at a critical LXX text ... or a particular translation of the LXX? If it is a particular translation don't 'dis the LXX - instead look at other translations contemporary to the one you are using ... language changes over time

Second, if you are not looking at a critical LXX test, look at one and look at the apparatus for variants. If you find it is a reading in LXX go to the next step.

Third, look for the probability of variant readings in the original Hebrew checking the Peshitta and Targums for further evidence.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doug Mangum | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 4:04 PM

Μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος ("Angel/Messenger of Great Counsel/Council") is the reading presented in Swete, Rahlfs, and the Gottingen edition. Here's a screenshot of the apparatus from Gottingen. The relevant lines are underlined. I hate decoding the notations in critical apparatuses, but it looks like the main question associated with this phrase revolves around pluses following the phrase, not the wording of the phrase itself. 

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Doug Mangum | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 4:16 PM

Later texts added more titles, correcting toward the longer list in the Masoretic Text.

Isaiah is one of the more challenging books to interpret from LXX alongside MT. Sadly, the Isaiah volume of the Septuagint Commentary Series by Ken Penner won't be released for another six months or so. I'm looking forward to it.

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 4:19 PM

Chrisser:
I've tried to find an explanation, whether it be theological, historical, or better yet, a variant reading of Isaiah 9:5-6

It's probably one of many cases where The LXX translators struggled to make sense of these verses and present their meaning to Greek-speaking world, particularly as the Davidic kingship had been gone for centuries.

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Doug Mangum | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 4:47 PM

Doug Mangum:

Later texts added more titles, correcting toward the longer list in the Masoretic Text.

Isaiah is one of the more challenging books to interpret from LXX alongside MT. Sadly, the Isaiah volume of the Septuagint Commentary Series by Ken Penner won't be released for another six months or so. I'm looking forward to it.

Ken pointed me to a note about this verse that he made available online: https://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=651#p2513

At the least, his note does the service of interpreting the details of the information from the critical apparatus.

Posts 22
Ken M. Penner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 5:22 PM

I posted an early version of my comments on Isaiah 9 in Codex Sinaiticus at https://www.academia.edu/29981933/Esaias_9_in_Codex_Sinaiticus_Text

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Chrisser | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 6:27 PM

Thank you so much Ken. So it seems this could be understood as a messenger of a council (noun).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 6:32 PM

Chrisser:
council (noun).

Note counsel is also a noun is many contexts:

counsel (n.)

c. 1200, "advice or instruction given;" c. 1300, "mutual advising or interchange of opinions, consultation," from Old French counseil "advice, counsel; deliberation, thought" (10c.), from Latin consilium "plan, opinion," from assimilated form of com "with, together" (see con-) + root of calare "to announce, summon" (from PIE root *kele- (2) "to shout"). As a synonym for "lawyer, one who gives legal counsel," attested late 14c.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 22
Ken M. Penner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 6:59 PM

If you’re wondering about what Βουλή can mean (counsel/council) I also wrote about that Greek word. See https://www.academia.edu/39767823/βουλή_βουλεύω_βουλευτής

The noun can refer to the capacity to make wise decisions, the activity of deciding, the infor-mation used in making a decision, the result-ing decision, or an official decision-making group. 
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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 21 2020 9:01 PM

Ken M. Penner:
capacity to make wise decisions

Well, I was reading along Mr Penner's references, and my eyes slid over to the side-bar, and disaster struck:

https://www.academia.edu/13051992/_The_Historical_and_Theological_Lexicon_of_the_Septuagint_HTLS_in_E._Bons_R._Hunziker-Rodewald_J._Joosten_Biblical_Lexicology_Hebrew_and_Greek._Semantics_Exegesis_Translation_BZAW_443_Berlin_New_York_De_Gruyter_2015_pp._357_367

And the big-A even has the pre-order (alpha-gamma):

https://www.amazon.com/Historical-Theological-Lexicon-Septuagint-Eberhard/dp/3161507479/

Capacity for wise decisions ... hmmm. LXX Commentary or HTLS. Hmmm. Sorely, sorely tempting.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 22
Ken M. Penner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 22 2020 5:57 AM

Denise:
The first volume of the HTLS was at the SBL book exhibit in San Diego. Here's a photo: 

Posts 22
Ken M. Penner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 22 2020 6:37 AM

Doug Mangum:

Isaiah is one of the more challenging books to interpret from LXX alongside MT. Sadly, the Isaiah volume of the Septuagint Commentary Series by Ken Penner won't be released for another six months or so. I'm looking forward to it.

Brill's Septuagint Commentary Series is not intended to explain how the Greek translator came up with his translation (production), rather to explain how a reader of the Greek would have understood it (reception). That's why my commentary doesn't really address the original question raised in this thread.

There is an earlier commentary on Greek Isaiah by Ottley that does address the production. It's in the public domain at https://archive.org/details/IsaiahAccordingToTheSeptuagint/page/n536 and a Logos resource at https://www.logos.com/product/157223/the-book-of-isaiah-according-to-the-septuagint-codex-alexandrinus-volume-2

Additional bibliography below. If you use Zotero, you can follow the links at https://www.zotero.org/groups/14909/septuagint/items/collectionKey/V8QXJEJT to read most of these:

  • Collins, J. J. “Isaiah 8:23-9:6 And Its Greek Translation.” In Scripture in Transition. Essays on Septuagint, Hebrew Bible, and Dead Sea Scrolls in Honour of Raija Sollamo, edited by A. Voitila and J. Jorikanta, 205 – 221. JSJSup 126. Leiden: Brill, 2008.
  • Fédou, M. “La réception d’Isaïe 8-9 dans la littérature patristique des II e III e siècles.” Adamantius 13 (2007): 46 – 51.
  • Hanhart, R. “Die Septuaginta als Interpretation und Aktualisierung. Jesaja 9:1 (8:23)-7(6).” In Studien zur Septuaginta und zum hellenistischen Judentum, edited by R. Hanhart and R. G. Kratz, 24:95–109. FAT 24. Tübingen, 1999.
  • Kooij, Arie van der. “LXX-Isaiah 8-9 and the Issue of Fulfillment-Interpretation.” Adamantius 13 (2007): 20 – 28.
  • ———. “The Septuagint of Isaiah and the Mode of Reading Prophecies in Early Judaism. Some Comments on LXX Isaiah 8-9.” In Die Septuaginta-Texte, Kontexte, Lebens- Welten. Internationale Fachtagung Veranstaltet von Septuaginta Deutsch (LXX.D), Wuppertal 20.-23. Juli 2006, edited by M. Karrer and W. Kraus, 219:597 – 611. WUNT. Tübingen, 2008.
  • Le Moigne, Philippe. “Le père ou le roi : Stratégies de traduction en Ésaïe IX, 6 et XXII, 21 (Septante).” Cahiers d’études du religieux. Recherches interdisciplinaires 4 (2008). https://doi.org/10.4000/cerri.190.
  • Lust, Johann. “Messianism in the Septuagint: Isaiah 8,23b-9,6 (9,1-7).” In Interpretation of the Bible - Interpretation Der Bibel - Interprétation de La Bible - Interpretacija Svetega Pisma, 147–63. JSOT SS 289. Sheffield: Academic Press, 1998.
  • Munnich, O. “La traduction grecque d’Isaïe 8-9 et ses liens avec l’exégèse rabbinique.” Adamantius 13 (2007): 8 – 19.
  • Sousa, Rodrigo Franklin de. “Problems and Perspectives on the Study of Messianism in LXX Isaiah.” In The Old Greek of Isaiah : Issues and Perspectives : Papers Read at the Conference on the Septuagint of Isaiah, Held in Leiden 10-11 April 2008, edited by Michaël Nicolaas van der Meer and Arie van der Kooij, 135–52. CBET 55. Leiden: Brill, 2010.
  • Trigg, Joseph W. “The Angel of Great Counsel: Christ and the Angelic Hierarchy in Origen’s Theology.” Journal of Theological Studies 42, no. 1 (1991): 35–51.
Posts 10773
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 22 2020 7:02 AM

Ken M. Penner:
The first volume of the HTLS was at the SBL book exhibit in San Diego.

It's real! And an interesting author too. Thank you.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2550
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 22 2020 3:14 PM

Denise:

If only this appeared on Logos!

Posts 326
Chrisser | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 28 2020 8:07 AM

Thanks Mr Penner I'm grabbing the free domain commentary.
edit:

I haven't used zotero in awhile. I had issues with it for awhile. I might go back to it.
Joseph Trigg posted his article on academia.edu
https://www.academia.edu/10416483/The_Angel_of_Great_Counsel_Christ_and_the_Angelic_Hierarchy_in_Origens_Theology

A
lright so this is what I was thinking, Trigg's article that is. OT hypostases of Yahweh, like Jewish-Christian primitive Christology.

Posts 326
Chrisser | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 28 2020 11:33 AM

This is all extremely helpful. Thank you much!

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