Wrong language tagging on several resources

Page 1 of 2 (22 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 21 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 634
Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 24 2020 7:34 PM

Had to remove all of these from my English Bible collection:

Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | Logos 4 Portfolio | Logos 5 Platinum | Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade | Logos 7 Essential Upgrade - Large | Logos 8 Methodist & Wesleyan Platinum and Academic Professional

Posts 10560
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2020 4:06 AM

I tried to alert Kyle to this post in another thread, hope he'll be able to fix those resources. 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 634
Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2020 5:23 AM

NB.Mick:

I tried to alert Kyle to this post in another thread, hope he'll be able to fix those resources. 

Thank you, Mick. About a week ago I pulled those out of my collection but didn't give it much thought. When I saw that thread yesterday I decided to take a closer look at the "Why" of the issue and realized this must all be related.

Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | Logos 4 Portfolio | Logos 5 Platinum | Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade | Logos 7 Essential Upgrade - Large | Logos 8 Methodist & Wesleyan Platinum and Academic Professional

Posts 25584
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 25 2020 2:34 PM

BHt is an English transcription (surface text) of the Hebrew. But it is not an English translation, as the word order is left-to-right Hebrew. So it can't be a Hebrew bible, either. So, it either needs a new language metadata or you exclude it with type:bible lang:English -subject:hebrew.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 1227
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 27 2020 7:17 AM

Thanks. I've seen this and have made a case to get them fixed.

Posts 28742
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 27 2020 11:01 AM

Dave Hooton:
BHt is an English transcription (surface text) of the Hebrew.

Not disagreeing with you but offering a different perspective: a transcription changes the alphabet but not the language as I use the terms.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 25584
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 28 2020 5:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
Not disagreeing with you but offering a different perspective: a transcription changes the alphabet but not the language as I use the terms.

I used the wrong word! BHt is an English transliteration of the Hebrew. It seems to use the English alphabet, but my main point is that it is not an English translation; which should determine the language metadata.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 10560
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2020 1:00 PM

Dave Hooton:
BHt is an English transliteration of the Hebrew

are you sure? in my opinion it is a Latin script transliteration of Hebrew - what makes this English as opposed to Spanish, German, Dutch or any other language written in Latin script? I personally - as a lay person not trained in linguistics - would say the language is still Hebrew (and no other), just the script is Latin characters rather than Hebrew characters. But Logos could put the language as Translit (something they invented but not differentiated into what the actual language is). 

From a functionality standpoint I understand that one can run searches against the BHt (especially for parts of words and other things people sometimes ask about running against Hebrew script OTs such as BHS or LHB and can't do). So BHt possibly should turn up in a collection of Hebrew bibles simply built by type:bible lang:he and should not turn up in a collection of type:bible lang:en as there's no English in it. The first part of this argument helps people who do Hebrew to some extent (not me) and the second part will keep it out of the way from where it doesn't belong. (this would seemingly include me and the OP - and this would work whether Failthlife decides to tag it lang:he or lang:translit or whatever). If there's any functional reason this should be an English bible, I'm happy to hear the argument 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 25584
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2020 10:41 AM

NB.Mick:

Dave Hooton:
BHt is an English transliteration of the Hebrew

are you sure?

If you quoted the rest of my comment i.e.

Dave Hooton:
BHt is an English transliteration of the Hebrew. It seems to use the English alphabet, but my main point is that it is not an English translation; which should determine the language metadata.
then you would see that the language metadata should not be English. Neither should it be Hebrew, as that is not the manuscript text.

If it was lang:Translit, it would not appear with English bibles. If people wanted it for Hebrew study, then it can be included with subject:Hebrew.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 28742
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2020 11:08 AM

Sorry, Dave, but having worked in Pali which has no base alphabet, I disagree with the idea that it is not Hebrew solely because it is transliterated.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 5:29 PM

MJ. Smith:
but having worked in Pali which has no base alphabet,

Does that mean Pali is a spoken language but not a written language? If it has no alphabet, how can anything be written in Pali?

MJ. Smith:
I disagree with the idea that it is not Hebrew solely because it is transliterated.

If it’s not written in the Hebrew script, I don’t think it’s Hebrew (or English). It seems to be something other than Hebrew or English.

As an example, what language is “smh?” What word is “smh?” We can’t take a transliterated word like “smh” and say with any certainty that it refers to a specific Hebrew word. Is it a transliteration of שׁמה (horror), שמח (happy), or something else?

(There is another aspect which differentiates this transliteration from the Hebrew language. Hebrew is read and written from right to left, while the transliteration gets read and written from left to right. I’d think that anything written LTR couldn’t be Hebrew.)

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 5:40 PM

Dave Hooton:
If it was lang:Translit

While it would be nice to see that something is flagged as a transliteration, wouldn’t that be more of a boolean, independent of language?

Translit doesn’t seem to be a distinct language (such as Hebrew or English). Isn’t overloading lang (to do something as well as to mean something) what got us into this situation in the first place?

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 28742
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 6:56 PM

The terms are fairly easy to define:

  • language is a combination of words, grammar, syntax etc. that are conveyed by speech or symbols. English is English whether written in the standard Roman alphabet, braille, or international phonetic alphabet.
  • when the symbols used for a language are unknown to another person, a transliteration into symbols known to that person is made, trying to the degree possible to show that person how the language sounds. The language i.e. words, grammar, syntax etc. are unchanged. For example, a recent collection of Sanskrit texts showed the text in the roman alphabet rather than the expected devanagari to save in publishing costs. It was still sold as Sanskrit.

Relevant points:

  • The only thing that lang:translit would tell me was that it was assumed I wasn't comfortable with the original language so it was converted to something else for me. (or that the cost of printing in the normal script was prohibitively expensive) This can be less than helpful as in the Judeo-Arabic literature transliterated from the Arabic alphabet to the Hebrew alphabet.
  • I find it extraordinarily unhelpful to not have my Gothic Bible show up with a language of Gothic. My natural instinct to finding it is to type lang:Gothic ... but it is printed in the Roman alphabet and it therefore a transliteration.
  • There are also "semi-transliterations" such as the older English works that have replaced the thorn, the long s etc. to make them more readable ... at the cost of searches/compares not working against the similar works that have not be "updated".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 7:23 PM

MJ. Smith:
English is English whether written in the standard Roman alphabet, braille, or international phonetic alphabet.

English is expected to be written using its alphabet. Hebrew isn’t expected to be written using a different alphabet than its own.

It seems to me that part of what makes Hebrew, Hebrew, is its script, which never was Roman or English.

Regarding braille, Hebrew Braille is apparently different from English Braille, at a quick glance at Wikipedia. You can’t write a Hebrew word in English Braille and expect it to make sense to someone versed in Hebrew Braille, because it’s a different Braille language. If you agree with that, then in the same sense, transliteration would be a different “language” (not that it is one).

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 28742
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 8:19 PM

PetahChristian:
English is expected to be written using its alphabet

Not if you are blind.

PetahChristian:
Hebrew isn’t expected to be written using a different alphabet than its own.

For a look at how the surrounding scripts affected the Hebrew see https://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/2016/03/a-digital-revolution-hundreds-of-hebrew-manuscripts-go-on-line.html.

For non-Hebrew texts in the Hebrew script https://medium.com/@judaicadh/datadeepdive-scripts-languages-of-the-geniza-22c64504d009

For a Hebrew Bible not in the Hebrew script https://biblehub.com/interlinear/transliterated/genesis/1.htm

PetahChristian:
Regarding braille, Hebrew Braille is apparently different from English Braille, at a quick glance at Wikipedia.
 

Braille is an "alphabet" not a language. Just as the Roman alphabet can be used for English, French, Spanish, Italian, German, Swedish, Icelandic ..Braille can be used for a number of languages. I don't happen to know its breadth across other alphabetic languages.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 9:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

PetahChristian:
English is expected to be written using its alphabet

Not if you are blind.

I've contributed to getting off-topic here. Sorry.

Kyle corrects what he is able to. The rest will have to wait until FL can come up with a better solution to this problem.

I'm thankful for the resources we do have access to, and in a diverse variety of languages.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 9:34 PM

PetahChristian:
I’d think that anything written LTR couldn’t be Hebrew.

I was wrong about that. It turns out that Hebrew Braille is written left to right, like other Braille alphabets.

PetahChristian:
Regarding braille, Hebrew Braille is apparently different from English Braille, at a quick glance at Wikipedia.

I was wrong about this too.

Hebrew Braille is based on English Braille. There are some letters in the Hebrew alphabet that aren't in the English alphabet, but, for example, a Hebrew Vet is the same braille as an English V, and a Hebrew Waw is the same braille as an English W. (That's transliteration at work! Wow!)

It was foolish of me to digress into a subject I knew nothing about. Sorry for my errors.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 28742
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 9:43 PM

PetahChristian:
It was foolish of me to digress into a subject I knew nothing about. Sorry for my errors.

Not when you didn't know that you didn't know. Most people don't get a lot of exposure to the broader world ... more a matter of interest than background. My cousin, a college dropout farmer in a town of 125 in a sparsely populated poor county, has more knowledge of wild flowers, rocks, geology, philosophy, theology and world religion than almost anyone I know.  And my friends run towards Buddhist scholars, international aid workers, religious studies scholars, storytellers, Dominican priests ...curiosity and willingness to search are how one learns. And my cousin is a perfect example.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 6 2020 10:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
curiosity and willingness to search are how one learns. And my cousin is a perfect example.

You're a good example too. I appreciate you, and what you know and share.

I'm sorry. I should have just agreed to disagree about whether transliterated Hebrew is Hebrew. I got carried away, and God used the situation to remind me of my shortcoming(s) which I had to confess.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 1227
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 7 2020 7:37 AM

Just chiming in to say I appreciate you all very much. This has been an engaging debate full of humility and passion. 

And as a side note I'm thankful to work at a place where I get to engage with thoughtful and passionate users over our product who really want it to see it grow into being the best that it can be.

Page 1 of 2 (22 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS