Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive - I think I want a refund

Page 2 of 5 (81 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
This post has 80 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 506
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 7:12 PM | Locked

The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.

Have you not forgotten when Paul used "σκύβαλα" to describe his works in relation to Christ?  Would any of you have the guts to describe your works by calling them "$h1T" like Paul did? Would any of you have the guts to preach with such a word, even though an inspired apostle of God included it in the inspired Word of God?

Or do you also forget when Paul wished that those pesky Judaizers would castrate themselves and finish the job their circumcision started?

Or when you preach from Ezekiel, do you gloss over the part where God chides the Israelites for lusting after foreigners because they have huge penises and ejaculate like a horse?

And this says nothing about the graphic imagery that really is in Song of Solomon.

So next time you throw stones at Driscoll, or anyone else, don't forget what's in your own Bibles.

Posts 656
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 7:18 PM | Locked

Greg Masone:

The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.

Have you not forgotten when Paul used "σκύβαλα" to describe his works in relation to Christ?  Would any of you have the guts to describe your works by calling them "$h1T" like Paul did? Would any of you have the guts to preach with such a word, even though an inspired apostle of God included it in the inspired Word of God?

Or do you also forget when Paul wished that those pesky Judaizers would castrate themselves and finish the job their circumcision started?

Or when you preach from Ezekiel, do you gloss over the part where God chides the Israelites for lusting after foreigners because they have huge penises and ejaculate like a horse?

And this says nothing about the graphic imagery that really is in Song of Solomon.

So next time you throw stones at Driscoll, or anyone else, don't forget what's in your own Bibles.

Speaking of skubalon, this is an good take. http://bible.org/article/toward-evangelical-theology-cussing. The article also points out that when we use words, it doesn't just matter what we say, but how we say it and what we are intending. I don't think there is anything wrong with the actual words Driscoll used, but what is he doing with them? Paul wasn't flippant; Driscoll was. 

Posts 258
Aaron Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 8:05 PM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Ditto.

I've found his preaching to be shallow and too vulgar for me.

Yep. Too vulgar for me as well. Exhibit A --> *Caution: Explicit Content* https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en

Posts 31958
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 8:11 PM | Locked

Jeremy:
Not that he shouldn't talk about sex in very frank terms (Driscoll's location in Seattle demands it)

Do you know something about Seattle that I don't?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 8:19 PM | Locked

Relevant article on Pastors and contemporary culture: Grunge Christianity and Cussing Pastors? What Next?

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 8:21 PM | Locked

Greg Masone:
The "Pharisee vs tax collector" attitude on this forum is depressing.

I figure if Isaiah had unclean lips, surely Driscoll can get away with it until the hot coals arrive .Isaiah 6:5 Zip it!
I would not start blaming the Logos forum for the reaction Driscoll gets. Logos even advertised this resource as controversial. It is my understanding many in Driscoll's own doctrinal camp are casting stones too, something about preachers having a higher calling than the tax collectors....

I almost bought this resource. There were entirely too many great resources coming out that I can't justify one I would marginally use.

Give me Paul Tillich or Karl Barth. There's enough controvesy there without offending my godly mother.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 439
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 9:19 PM | Locked

Yes, Bill, I don't like everything he does, but I donot like everything anybody does.  That is why we exercise discernment.  I could say the same about Vernon, Macarthur, Ironside, etc. 

Posts 31958
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 9:24 PM | Locked

Paul Golder:

Relevant article on Pastors and contemporary culture: Grunge Christianity and Cussing Pastors? What Next?

Having raised kids in Seattle in the "grunge era" I object to MacArthur's implied characterization of grunge. From Seattle Grunge Culture on Facebook:

... grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars, contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics. The grunge aesthetic is stripped-down compared to other forms of rock music, and many grunge musicians were noted for their unkempt appearances and rejection of theatrics...

How Driscoll relates to apathy, angst, and minimalism, the core of the subculture, escapes me. Now I don't usually use Facebook as a source but in this case it says well what matches my experience.

As a grunge fan (my son the MD) said: (1) grunge lyrics are rarely intelligible (2) if found in written form, they are rarely comprehendible and (3) they rarely refer to anything explicitly.

To keep this thread Logos based, not theologically based, shall I suggest resources for Logos on Christianity and European Industrial Rock?Cool

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2830
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 11:42 PM | Locked

Aaron Sauer:
Yep. Too vulgar for me as well. Exhibit A --> *Caution: Explicit Content* https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en

Now this is ridiculous! I agree vulgar for me as well.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 506
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 6:48 AM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I would not start blaming the Logos forum for the reaction Driscoll gets.

Matthew,

I noticed that too after I had posted, but didn't have the time to change it. My post was directed at this particular thread in the forum and not all of Logos' forums as a whole.

I think we get very comfortable with the cultural Christianity that we have grown up in, so it becomes very easy for us to judge things in relation to what is considered "tasteful" within our subculture. Our subculture then becomes the absolute standard by which we judge things by.

I think this is why Driscoll and his Logos sermons tend to get so much flack. Most of us simply haven't been charged with the task of starting a church in the least churched city in America. Driscoll may have to use things that offend our cultural Christianity in order to reach people whose only perception of the faith comes from the more uptight and judgmental ones among us. To the Jew be as a Jew, to a gentile be as a gentile, etc...

Its kind of like this: Imagine you have a bar full of non-Christians living it up and having a fun time. Outside are two Christians, one whose tradition forbids alcohol use and even the appearance of using it, and the other whose tradition doesn't. So while the former stands outside a safe distance away and condemns and preaches to those heathens inside, the other Christian goes in and shares a beer with the group and successfully shares the Gospel with them.

Driscoll was given the charge by God to reach the people of Seattle because, being the least churched city in America, obviously no one else was. I think it would be good for Driscoll's offended critics to remember this. Driscoll isn't a heretic, nor is he some evil emergent monster. He's just a man called by God to reach the counter-culture by being counter-cultural.

Just because its a particular Christian subculture he's rubbing wrong doesn't make any difference and it doesn't make him wrong.

That's my thoughts at least. I get annoyed when I see so much stone-casting going on and no effort is made to understand the reasons behind such actions.

Posts 506
Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 6:57 AM | Locked

Aaron Sauer:

Well, its in the Bible. And as long as the audience is age appropriate, what's the problem?

Should we be selectively preaching only the parts of scripture that don't offend our cultural sensitivities?

Or is Jesus Christ really just comparing my breasts to leaping gazelles?

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 7:07 AM | Locked

Greg Masone:

I think this is why Driscoll and his Logos sermons tend to get so much flack. Most of us simply haven't been charged with the task of starting a church in the least churched city in America. Driscoll may have to use things that offend our cultural Christianity in order to reach people whose only perception of the faith comes from the more uptight and judgmental ones among us. To the Jew be as a Jew, to a gentile be as a gentile, etc...

Its kind of like this: Imagine you have a bar full of non-Christians living it up and having a fun time. Outside are two Christians, one whose tradition forbids alcohol use and even the appearance of using it, and the other whose tradition doesn't. So while the former stands outside a safe distance away and condemns and preaches to those heathens inside, the other Christian goes in and shares a beer with the group and successfully shares the Gospel with them.

Greg,

Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?

What works = what is correct before God?

 

What if it would reach more people in the bar by showing that you're a "regular guy" and get hammered like everyone else?

Would that be appropriate?

 

Just asking brother... :)

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 7:46 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?

What works = what is correct before God?

 

What if it would reach more people in the bar by showing that you're a "regular guy" and get hammered like everyone else?

Would that be appropriate?

Nail head, meet Bob's hammer... Yes

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 7:56 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
Having raised kids in Seattle in the "grunge era" I object to MacArthur's implied characterization of grunge. From Seattle Grunge Culture on Facebook:

It seems, to me, that he was speaking in relation to the meaning of the term from which the subculture, associated with that movement, derived it's name:

Grunge - dirt: the state of being covered with unclean things

MJ. Smith:
shall I suggest resources for Logos on Christianity and European Industrial Rock?Cool

Now that's funny Smile

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 7:58 AM | Locked

Greg Masone:
I think we get very comfortable with the cultural Christianity that we have grown up in, so it becomes very easy for us to judge things in relation to what is considered "tasteful" within our subculture. Our subculture then becomes the absolute standard by which we judge things by.

I grew up in Japan, raised by my missionary parents. In Japan you see advertisements for movies at most bus stops and on many giant billboards. The only problem is they are pornographic in nature. We might expect a pagan culture to be like that. In reality Americanized "Christian" culture is much more vulgar than Japan's paganism. The things Mark Driscoll says in his pulpit are illegal to display in a pornographic movie in an adult-only theater in Japan.

I can understand your frustration with the judgemental attitudes of divergent modern Christianity. It is a double-standard when mainstream churches loosen Biblical standards to appease "itching ears" but condemn Driscoll for doing the same. Imagine how many more Driscoll could reach for Christ if he would accept same sex marriage like the big denominations. Devil
NOTICE: The preceding statement was not a recommendation but the logical consequence of following this line of thinking. The more we blur the lines of demarcation, the easier to "win" people to Christ. Whatever happened to the "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" directive?  2 Cor. 6:17

Greg Masone:
Just because its a particular Christian subculture he's rubbing wrong doesn't make any difference and it doesn't make him wrong.

 (With no disrespect to George Barna, The Church Growth Institute, or Leadership Magazine from Christianity Today) Just because a preacher fills a building with a fan club does not make the preacher doctrinally correct or make the fan club saved. Matthew 7:22-23

P.S. - My father, and most other missionaries I have met, have planted churches all over the world. I have never heard any of them change the message or lower the standards to coax conversion. And most of these churches were in pagan, hostile and unchurched societies.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 825
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 8:24 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Isn't this an argument from pragmatism?

What works = what is correct before God?

I agree that pragmatism or "lowest common denominator-ism" is a poor model for the preaching of the Word even though it has been the watchword of the Church Growth movement for years.  As someone once said, the Great Commission should be renamed the Great Marketing Plan.  I personally find the entire concept theologically repulsive. 

Nevertheless, these men and women have the freedom to minister as they feel led.  But it comes with a warning (as it does for all), "... let each man be careful how he builds ...  For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work."

Thus, Driscoll and others should minister as they see fit and not as I think they should.  Perhaps they do well in meeting the "demands of Seattle".  Perhaps not.

For my part, I will exercise my own discernment as I feel led.

JRS has left the building.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 8:27 AM | Locked

Greg Masone:
And as long as the audience is age appropriate, what's the problem?

Are we going to card everybody at the door now?

Driscoll's sermons are on YuToob. Millions of kids go there.

In Oklahoma an adult could be charged with various crimes for talking with a minor like Driscoll talks in church.

I have always been gung-ho for having new & differing resources in Logos. I am not against Driscoll's material, or even SDA commentaries being available in Logos. But I certainly support the original poster expressing his opinions. I think people should be provided the choice. Let them buy it if they like it or pass if they don't. And forum posts are like the reviews on Am@zon with one exception; Logos might actually improve a resource based on comments posted. (Things like better tagging, increased content,  revising the format to make it more useful.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 8:43 AM | Locked

Without judging anyone on this thread, let me remind us all that these forums are here to help us use the software better. Inquiries as to the value of certain resources one is considering for purchase (or considering returning) are also valid.

Taking on the strategy of someone published by Logos, or language of material not in Logos is outside the purview of these forums.

I can't say I like all I read about Driscoll, I don't have his stuff, I've read one of his books (didn't really like it), and don't plan to buy anything by him. But that's no reason to flame on, or repeat the same objections with what sometimes appears to be a kind of salacious delight. That is unseemly for Christians as well. Offense, perhaps (probably), should be taken. But the response to that offense would be more productive, if it incited us to pray for the brother, rather than burn him in the flames of forum posts.

I posted on my facebook status this week this quote, and it seems to apply here as well: "It's good to hate sin. It's not good to hate your brother's sin more than your own."

Don't like Driscoll's stuff? Don't buy it, return it, etc. Don't like Driscoll? Pray for him.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 11:42 AM | Locked

Richard DeRuiter:

Without judging anyone on this thread, let me remind us all that these forums are here to help us use the software better. Inquiries as to the value of certain resources one is considering for purchase (or considering returning) are also valid.

Taking on the strategy of someone published by Logos, or language of material not in Logos is outside the purview of these forums.

I can't say I like all I read about Driscoll, I don't have his stuff, I've read one of his books (didn't really like it), and don't plan to buy anything by him. But that's no reason to flame on, or repeat the same objections with what sometimes appears to be a kind of salacious delight. That is unseemly for Christians as well. Offense, perhaps (probably), should be taken. But the response to that offense would be more productive, if it incited us to pray for the brother, rather than burn him in the flames of forum posts.

I posted on my facebook status this week this quote, and it seems to apply here as well: "It's good to hate sin. It's not good to hate your brother's sin more than your own."

Don't like Driscoll's stuff? Don't buy it, return it, etc. Don't like Driscoll? Pray for him.

I really do not intend the following to be critical, but I feel that I do need to comment as I posted on the first page. I understood that the OP was asking for comments on the Logos resource, The Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive. I attempted to respond in a focused and reasonable manner and, in so doing, believe I was acting within the forum guidelines.

I have to be honest, but it seems to me that much of this strand runs (at the very least) against the spirit of the forum guidelines. I thought the issue around theological discussions was a recognition that many people from different backgrounds use Logos software and that Logos wanted to avoid controversy and division on its own pages. If this is indeed the intent, surely it is not acceptable to publically criticise a fellow pastor/Christian because we do not agree with his views/methods.

How is this better than a strand debating eschatology or creationism? To put it another way, would it be acceptable for me to start a strand around the Calvin resource and then use this to criticise Calvin's views on, say, paedobaptism or some of the more problematic events in Geneva?

Or what about practically any other flawed, imperfect theologian represented among Logos' many resources?

I have an issue with the posting of the link to the article critiquing Driscoll on the previous page. Is this consistent with the forum guidelines? Would it be acceptable for Logos users to use this space to critique the article? In my opinion the article is grossly unfair, but surely this is not the place for me to expand on this in detail. That places myself (as someone who has found the ministry of Mars Hill to be, in all honesty, transformational) at a disadvantage. It places Mark Driscoll, his family and those who attend Mars Hill at a similar disadvantage.

My primary concern is this: Mark Driscoll is a strong advocate for Logos. I first heard about Logos via the ministry of Mars Hill Church. I have been a Christian now for well over a decade and am discouraged and narked by what I have read here. Imagine if a new Christian from Mars Hill, on Pastor Mark's recommendation, purchased Logos, visited the forum and read this strand? I know people may kick me for being over-sensitive or melodramatic, but it bothers me.

It bothers me that my name and picture appears on the first page of this strand.

I appreciate that his style will not be everyone's cup of tea. In honesty, I am not surprised that he offends some people. My advice is this (for what it is worth) if Mark Driscoll's methods/theology bother you: don't buy the resource, it is not for you.

I am sorry for posting in this way, but I do so for selfish reasons. I posted on the first page and am now embarrassed that I did so, particularly given the shape of the subsequent exchanges.

I apologise to Mark Driscoll, his family and the folks at Mars Hill Church for my part in this.

I will restrain myself from thus commenting here in the future.

 

 

Posts 31958
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 11:45 AM | Locked

Paul Golder:
Grunge - dirt: the state of being covered with unclean things

Ouch - my farming family was grungy all the time ,,, it's spread from Seattle to the entire agricultural subculture Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Page 2 of 5 (81 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > | RSS