Paul vs. Jesus resources

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Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Feb 21 2020 5:11 PM

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree, but I just wanted to know if there are resources that talk about the list of these topics. I know sometimes people promotes different ideas of Paul, not because of what Paul wrote, but because we often confuse application with content, and how some people misinterpret them. I hope I didn't confuse you guys.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 21 2020 11:35 PM

There's an article by Scot McKnight about this topic in Christianity Today from Dec 3, 2010:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html

It's in Logos (if you have those years of Christianity Today as a resource) at logosres:ctmag54;ref=VolumeNumberPage.V_54,_N_12,_pp_24-25;off=9

There's an accompanying Bible study that can be purchased from CT:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/j/jesus-vs-paul.html

There's also a book by Jeremy Treat called The Crucified King which "deftly dispatches several [false dichotomies], including Old Testament vs. New, Jesus vs. Paul, and biblical vs. systematic theology." (Bobby Jamieson, “Review of The Crucified King: Atonement and Kingdom in Biblical and Systematic Theology by Jeremy Treat,” 9Marks Journal, 2014, 42.

The Crucified King isn't available in Logos, but it's available in Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GS084RW

There are some articles online that go into the so-called differences, if you want to pursue that route with the above resources in hand to debunk the incompatibility of Jesus and Paul:

https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 5:52 AM

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree

I assume what you said here makes sense to you, but I am not at all clear as to what you mean. Are you saying:

A) there should be no variation in teaching from Yeishuua` to Paulus because it seems like an intuitive assumption to expect there to be agreement because their teachings are both found in the same Book?
OR
B) there is a necessity that Yeishuua` teach and fulfill the requirements of Tanakh: because He can only effectively die as a Savior if He is completing the tasks of Tohraah, and so Paulus, to maintain agreement and avoid difference, must (should) likewise teach and fulfill those same requirements--because they are in the same Book?
OR
C) something else?

YHWH said He expects people to keep His word/teaching (Tohraah)...Yeishuua` said He does only what He sees and hears from the Father...Paulus says if you attempt to keep the Father's word/teaching then Yeishuua`'s Messianic sacrifice is of no effect. Paulus said that the message he was bringing was BRAND NEW (Eph. 3:4, 5).

So...what exactly are you stating/suggesting when you say "Re: differences btwn Yeishuua` & Paulus...there should be NONE"?

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 7:03 AM

mike:
Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

As Rosie's list demonstrates, most (all?) treatments either go one way (different!!), or same (emphasis!!). I don't know of any that make a rigorous comparison. Such would include 3 or even 4 comparisons .... jewish teaching/culture, hellenism, Jesus (reported), and Paul (collected). 

- A lot of 'sameness' is simply members of the same cultural group. A lot of difference can be associated with reported, or collected.

- If one glues together the gospels with gnostics, would the 'emphasis' argument be exactly the same? Or the gospels and Zorastrian flavors? Both  combinations had centuries of success among Christians. Made sense.

- How much is similarity, doctrinal picking/choosing? In our Bible class, I printed the Jesus commands (demanded as Jesus powered up to Heaven), and asked who actually did any of them, or was too worried about it? Everyone smiled.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 4835
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 7:55 AM

Denise:
Everyone smiled.

Did anyone sweat?

Posts 10622
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 9:13 AM

David Paul:

Denise:
Everyone smiled.

Did anyone sweat?

I've never seen anyone sweat, selecting the wrong religion or version of such. Usually, the sweating is having ignored a doctrine in some guilty way. On Sunday morning in our village 30 ministers (rounding) proclaim at least 29 false-teachings, and nary a one is concerned the terrible odds don't favor them. (Not saying 'which' conceivably might be the correct one). And in class, doctrine trumps the text.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 11:26 AM

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree,

Starting with your premise that Jesus teaching Jews before the crucifixion and resurrection and Paul teaching Gentiles after the resurrection should have no differences in emphasis, I have no suggestions. Modifying that premise to there should be only differences in emphasis and not in doctrine, you might be interested in 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 11:42 AM

This might be also interesting, although expensive

When Paul Met Jesus: How an Idea Got Lost in History

https://www.amazon.com/When-Paul-Met-Jesus-History-ebook/dp/B01CJUV55W/ 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 12:21 PM

Veli Voipio:

This might be also interesting, although expensive

When Paul Met Jesus: How an Idea Got Lost in History

https://www.amazon.com/When-Paul-Met-Jesus-History-ebook/dp/B01CJUV55W/ 

Wow, that looks great but expensive. I wish Logos would get it, but it still might be more than I'd spend for something like that. If it were in the $30-40 range, I'd snap it up.

Posts 398
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 12:51 PM

David Paul:

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree

I assume what you said here makes sense to you, but I am not at all clear as to what you mean. Are you saying:

A) there should be no variation in teaching from Yeishuua` to Paulus because it seems like an intuitive assumption to expect there to be agreement because their teachings are both found in the same Book?
OR
B) there is a necessity that Yeishuua` teach and fulfill the requirements of Tanakh: because He can only effectively die as a Savior if He is completing the tasks of Tohraah, and so Paulus, to maintain agreement and avoid difference, must (should) likewise teach and fulfill those same requirements--because they are in the same Book?
OR
C) something else?

YHWH said He expects people to keep His word/teaching (Tohraah)...Yeishuua` said He does only what He sees and hears from the Father...Paulus says if you attempt to keep the Father's word/teaching then Yeishuua`'s Messianic sacrifice is of no effect. Paulus said that the message he was bringing was BRAND NEW (Eph. 3:4, 5).

So...what exactly are you stating/suggesting when you say "Re: differences btwn Yeishuua` & Paulus...there should be NONE"?

maybe I’m mistaken, but I interpreted it as asking about resources that discussed perceived differences that some think are present.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 3:46 PM

David Wanat:
maybe I’m mistaken, but I interpreted it as asking about resources that discussed perceived differences that some think are present.

Historically, there's been a LOT of "some"...and that being the case, it makes sense to conclude that there's something motivating the "some". I'm still curious as to what he's "100% in agreement" with.

Going to recommend The Mythmaker by Hyam Maccoby. I suggested that FL add this to Logos years ago. STILL think they should add it.

Posts 10622
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 22 2020 4:05 PM

David Paul:
Going to recommend The Mythmaker by Hyam Maccoby. I suggested that FL add this to Logos years ago. STILL think they should add it.

Well, don't recommend it on my account ... I just ordered it. Appreciate it.  I always wondered to what degree Paul knew Deu/Isa/Jer, concerning  prophets that didn't nail it.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 25 2020 9:06 PM

Thank you!

Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 25 2020 9:10 PM

David Paul:

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree

I assume what you said here makes sense to you, but I am not at all clear as to what you mean. Are you saying:

A) there should be no variation in teaching from Yeishuua` to Paulus because it seems like an intuitive assumption to expect there to be agreement because their teachings are both found in the same Book?
OR
B) there is a necessity that Yeishuua` teach and fulfill the requirements of Tanakh: because He can only effectively die as a Savior if He is completing the tasks of Tohraah, and so Paulus, to maintain agreement and avoid difference, must (should) likewise teach and fulfill those same requirements--because they are in the same Book?
OR
C) something else?

YHWH said He expects people to keep His word/teaching (Tohraah)...Yeishuua` said He does only what He sees and hears from the Father...Paulus says if you attempt to keep the Father's word/teaching then Yeishuua`'s Messianic sacrifice is of no effect. Paulus said that the message he was bringing was BRAND NEW (Eph. 3:4, 5).

So...what exactly are you stating/suggesting when you say "Re: differences btwn Yeishuua` & Paulus...there should be NONE"?

A! Although I won't put it that way. :)

Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 25 2020 9:20 PM

MJ. Smith:

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree,

Starting with your premise that Jesus teaching Jews before the crucifixion and resurrection and Paul teaching Gentiles after the resurrection should have no differences in emphasis, I have no suggestions. Modifying that premise to there should be only differences in emphasis and not in doctrine, you might be interested in 

Thank you! Very helpful.

Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 25 2020 9:31 PM

David Wanat:

maybe I’m mistaken, but I interpreted it as asking about resources that discussed perceived differences that some think are present.

Yes, thank you! Your sixth sense is correct. :)

Posts 1861
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2020 3:36 PM

MJ. Smith:

You and Rosie quoted this one. I read it but it didn't sit well with me. What do you guys think?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2020 4:50 PM

mike:
I read it but it didn't sit well with me. What do you guys think?

"think" to me implies rational thought; "sit well" .... well, I don't know what it really means except a vague dis-ease. If you mean, "do I agree with the doctrinal assumptions of the article?"  No, I do not but I did not interpret your original question to mean resources that I found to be theologically agreeable. If you mean, "do I believe that within their assumptions the author made an honest attempt to identify and interpret the evidence?" Yes, I do ... and that is considerably more than many articles on the web do. Many cherry pick the evidence, sugar-coat the difficulties and ask me to swallow the sweet mess whole. I prefer sources that may leave me uncomfortable and therefore force me to genuinely analyze the evidence and argument they present.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 344
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 27 2020 10:51 PM

I recently read somewhere (can’t  recall where) that it’s quite probable that Rabbi Saul actually saw Jesus during His earthly ministry inasmuch as Paul would’ve been one of the Pharisees (cf., Philippians) who were withstanding him around Jerusalem.

I had never heard this theory, but I found it an interesting point.

Probably unrelated to Logos materials—other than to suggest Constantine Campbell’s work on “Unity in Christ” (don’t recall the actual name of the book off-hand).

Posts 4835
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 28 2020 6:31 AM

mike:

David Paul:

mike:

Are the any resources that talk about the different emphasizes between Paul vs. Jesus?

I know there should be none and I 100% agree

Are you saying:
A) there should be no variation in teaching from Yeishuua` to Paulus because it seems like an intuitive assumption to expect there to be agreement because their teachings are both found in the same Book?

A! Although I won't put it that way. :)

Okay, you wouldn't put it that way. Having picked A, though, I think the notion that there "should" be no difference is rejected by the Scriptural declarations of the facts as they lay. Paulus said his gospel is a brand new thing, and he plainly refers to it as "his" gospel on multiple occasions, something that even Yeishuua` never did. I'm only bringing any of this up because if your premises are out of whack, your conclusions will be too. If you are going to take Paulus at his word, then "no", (in contradiction of the language of choice A) there shouldn't be "no variation"--in fact, variation is explicitly declared. In other words, the intuitive (and thus extremely common) assumption misleads.

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